Munich
I came away with something very interesting. In relation to my position of “sides” concerning the Palestinian Israeli issue I always thought of people that ask “What the hell are these people (both sides) fighting for?” as people that just don’t get it.
I mean people on my side are fighting for what they lost. Fighting for a home, a land, and self determination. Tangible soil, the (granted often hypothetical) groves of their fathers, and a truly irreplaceable haven stemmed from an historic lineage. Something you just can’t explain to someone that has it. How do you explain inherited concrete homes signed and allocated upon marriage to someone that can get up and move three or four times in a lifetime; you can’t.
The same goes for the Israelis. If I were a Jew I probably would have been just as adamant about Israel. A chance to live under their own rule after millennia of Diaspora and persecution? Of course I understand that inherent need; again the need for self determination. Simply taking it under the clause of a divine oration is wrong but that wouldn’t have mattered. History is written by the victors and in a few generations the way it was attained would be viewed with the same superficial remorse most Americans view the natives they dispersed.
Still I understand the position. I am also confident that there are many non extreme Israelis that genuinely understand the Arab position and visa versa. Everyone else just doesn’t get it.
So I thought.
After watching that movie (It might not have even been because of the actual movie, perhaps the setting that set the train of thought. Amazing what you pick up from Hollywood. This post is another good related example) I had this daunting Neo-figuring-out-the-Matrix feeling I couldn’t shake. What if we (the Arabs and the Jews) were the ones that didn’t get it? Securely wrapped in the confidence of our own self virtue what if we are the ignorant. What if there really is nothing worth fighting for.
People desire desire itself. Philosophy 101. What if we have succumbed to the actual desire of what it is we both cherish so dearly. What if there is a way to life, happy and fulfilled, detached from these desires. And if there is would we allow each other the perception of defeat in pursuit of such lives?
Round one has been over for decades. Israel isn’t going anywhere as reflected by every Arab faction that isn’t in denial. The Palestinians aren’t going anywhere either. I have argued before that there are only two ways this will end by the end of this round two. Round two dictates that neither side can let up. The moment one does it will be swept under. The alternative is a gradual psychological disarmament and coexistence.
I am now left with need to study the viability of this new alternative. Or maybe it’s nothing.
-Karim Elsahy
The gradual psychological disarmament you talked about wont work. In the case of Palestinians, i think they will suffer from a breakdown due to their schizophrenic behaviours & the best thing for them is to start a civil war to see the errors of their way & realise that coexistence isnt a word but a firm belief & practice they should implement. (Comment this)
(Comment this)
Maybe hypnosis would help? It seems to help some tobacco addicts. (Comment this)
Israelis are not just fighting for land. I realise the Arabs are.
But Israelis are fighting for so much more.
Half of Israel's Jewish population are Arab Jews who have nowhere else to go. Apart from a few islands the Arab world is Jew-free with the remaining Arab Jews living in Israel. They have nowhere else to go. They have no connection to Europe and America and no citizenship rights anywhere. There is no country next door that would be willing to give them citizenship. They are not fighting for a particular piece of land, they are fighting for their right to exist.
Going back to live as second-class citizens under Arab rule is not an option. It was never acceptable. It wouldn't physically work now. The Arab world has not grown up enough for Jews to live among Arabs.
Europe has.
That's why there is no need for a Jewish state in Europe or America, because in Europe and America Jews are normal citizens. They were not in Arab countries. In fact they were targets rather than citizens. That's why Israel is needed.
The Arab Palestinians are fighting for their Palestine and the Jewish Palestinians are fighting for theirs. But the Arabs have somewhere else to go. The Jews have not.
For Israelis the old Nasserite idea of throwing the Jews into the sea is not just a sign that Arabs won't accept Jews.
It's the only visible alternative.
Israel can either fight the Arabs, All Arabs, or the Jews can die.
Among the three possible basic options for Palestine, one is not an option at all.
All of Palestine could be Jewish.
All of Palestine could be Arab.
Palestine could be divided.
There are extremists on both sides who demand options one or two.
The third is the option Israel has always accepted and the Arabs have not.
Should Israel enforce option one, the Arabs could go live in other Arab countries with minimal disruption. They would live among their so-called brothers in a culture similar to their own, speaking the same or a similar language.
Should Hamas or other Arab fascists enforce option two, the Jews have nowhere to go. European and American Jews could go "back" to Europe and America, but Arab Jews can go nowhere. Hamas know that. Nasser knew that. Everybody always knew that.
From the Arab point of view Israel is trying to force the Arab Palestinians out of Palestine. Fair enough.
But from a Jewish point of view Israel is the last defence line of Arab Jews against the fascists who want to see them all dead.
If the Arab world was as enlightened as Europe and America, there would be no need for a Jewish state.
But as it stands, Israel is required, as might be a Kurdish state and states for all minorities, because, clearly, the Arab world is not fit to deal with minorities in a civilised way, as was Germany before the Americans made it.
As I see it Arabs have a choice. But the Americans have already started making the decision for you.
I come from Germany. I have seen it work. (Comment this)
Is this phenomenon solely due to the Creation of Israel? A direct result of Israel? No. The modern Arab world is in disarray and would have had problems with someone else if there was no Israel. That said there is an obvious synthesis between Jews and Israel. I know that is a widely unpopular statement to make but it is true nonetheless. The Star of David has become visually more political than theological. In the midst of almost %50 illiteracy makes for precarious circumstance.
“If the Arab world was as enlightened as Europe and America, there would be no need for a Jewish state.”
I don’t believe so. I also don’t believe you believe that. That statement implies Israel’s creation was in some way a reaction to the status of the Arab Jews. (Comment this)
But I know that the status of Jews in the Arab world was not always that of equals.
For a long time Germany was a safe haven for the Jews. That is why today Jewish culture, in the west, is very much associated with Germany. And that is why there were many millions of Jews in Europe.
There were fewer Jews in the Arab world.
I wonder why that was if the Arab world was such a safe haven?
The truth is that the Arab world was not always a safe haven for Jews (or any minority). Things change. And what was once a great culture with a high level of tolerance for minorities has become a failed culture with no tolerance for minorities. It happened in Germany. It happened in the Arab world.
Israel was not a reaction to Arab hostility. And incidentally, a creation of a hypothetical Kurdish state wouldn't have been a reaction to Arab hostility either. But that doesn't mean Arab hostility didn't exist.
You can see how other minorities live in the Arab world today. I have no doubt that the Jews would be among them, treated in the same way. And that is what Israelis always knew. And that is what Israel was fighting against.
Without Israel Arab nationalists would have slaughtered the Jews. I have no doubt that this is so.
With Israel, they tried. But the Jews could defend themselves.
A country like Israel in Europe was needed during Europe's time of nationalism. Unfortunately there was no German Israel when it was needed.
And yes, a creation of a German Israel before World War II would have been a weird construct, displacing possibly millions of non-Jewish Germans.
But can you honestly say that it would have been a bad thing if European Jews could have fought back, like Arab Jews did in the last 60 years?
I don't see what is so very bad about being displaced. It was obviously acceptable for Arab Jews that were expelled from Arab countries. Why is it such an impossibility for Arab Palestinians?
The Arab (and Turkish) world was a safe haven for Jews every now and then and so was Germany (and Europe). It varied over time.
However, in the 20th century the Arab world began to be no safe haven for anybody. And that is the time we have to deal with.
Bring back the Arab kings of old, or even the Arab kings before Nasser, and I believe in any Arab tolerance for Jews or anybody.
But not this Arab world we have today. Not this one.
Thus Israel is needed, to day and in the last several decades, to allow the Jews to defend themselves.
And my primary regret is that other minorities did not have that opportunity. (Comment this)
anyway what you wrote is what we called in Egypt very big words, Speilberg said there is no white or black in Mid East it is grey
anyway I want to see the movie ,yet it seems it will be banned just like Syrinna unfortunately
I don't know ya Karim but it is a palestine -Israel issue anymore , if it is about those two it will be much easier ,as there is Lebanon ,there is Syria ,there are alot of blood and alot of agony on all sides I don't think that Israelis are bunch of people who all the time have the idea to kill all the arabs just like the iranis and southern lebanese think
It is hard and complex and it will never reach to solution
you know why ? because there is a precious stone in the middle El-Quds , both wanted and don't give me those lectures about seperating religion from the conflict , come on religion is the base , the jews could chose any land but they chose palestine as their talmoud says
back again to Munich , is it worth ? is it really master piece of Speliberg as the Time described it ? I know you are not movie critic but any word will do the job (Comment this)
But!
Now you've crossed the line when you said "Andrew your entire argument is based on an oxymoron. Someone as obviously well versed as you I am sure knows that the rampant intolerance towards Jews in the Arab world is a modern occurrence. I won’t get into how the Arab world, until America, was the Jewish people’s only safe haven in a dark world. (Please don’t argue the whole tax thing; I find it a silly comparison.)" You are flat out wrong. Muslim oppression of Jews was intermittent throughout the region's history and present in every Arabic speaking country. Maimonides himself wrote about it.
If you stay in denial about it, you fall afoul of Santayana's warning. (Comment this)
Yes. We are trying, Karim. Not that we are always successful in it, especially after another "martyr" blows himslef/herself up. It is not that easy to cope with own emotions.
"Everyone else just doesn’t get it."
You know, I think you are right in this, although I am a bit leery of sweeping statements. Outsiders' (that includes some American & European Jews, with all due respect) vision tends to be skewed. (Comment this)
“Without Israel Arab nationalists would have slaughtered the Jews. I have no doubt that this is so.
With Israel, they tried. But the Jews could defend themselves.”
Too hypothetical, as you are judging by the current Anti Semitism which many could argue is a direct result of the creation of Israel.
“And yes, a creation of a German Israel before World War II would have been a weird construct, displacing possibly millions of non-Jewish Germans.”
As odd a construct as one which resulted in the displacement of millions of Arabs?
“But can you honestly say that it would have been a bad thing if European Jews could have fought back, like Arab Jews did in the last 60 years?”
Absolutely not. I never blamed Israelis born and raised in a country of which they knew no other for defending themselves, their families, and everything else they hold dear. Defending is the operative word and its meaning and perception are what lead to the differences I see.
There is something I already knew but found revealing in that movie. Somewhere in the movie one of the Mossad assassins says something like “The only blood I care about is Jewish blood”. While it is certainly not a model position there is a lot to learn from that. I wish Arabs cared as much about each other as most Jews do. Besides Palestine (which is often not much more than personal pride) that sentiment isn’t very predominant. I also remember a conversation I had with a reform Rabbi that was relevant to this. He was telling me how Reform Judaism, as opposed to the other sects, believes that Judaism is not the only way to heaven. When I asked “then why pick Judaism” he replied “Because Jews are a family.”
I previously felt that maybe it was because there are only 15 million Jews in the world and they perpetually face hardship. Maybe there is more to it.
”I don't see what is so very bad about being displaced. It was obviously acceptable for Arab Jews that were expelled from Arab countries. Why is it such an impossibility for Arab Palestinians?”
Huh?
“Bring back the Arab kings of old, or even the Arab kings before Nasser, and I believe in any Arab tolerance for Jews or anybody.”
Yes. And many of us strive for just that. It may not be very evident but neither was any other change in historical perspective.
Zeinab
“back again to Munich , is it worth ? Is it really master piece of Spielberg as the Time described it? I know you are not movie critic but any word will do the job.”
It is absolutely worth it. I was talking to Sandmonkey about it (he’s here visiting). He describes it as trying to please everyone but pissing everyone off. And that’s kind of true but maybe that’s it. Symbolic of the situation whole, no solution is going to appeal to all. So I liked it, very appealing to a centrist.
Omri
“Karim, you're probably the only anti-Zionist I, as a Zionist, could respect, since the alternative to Zionism that you are proposing is humane…”
That’s what it’s all about. We have different aspirations but we can hold a conversation.
“…if about as likely as Um Khaltoum rising from her rest and winning the next Eurovision contest. I can respect your wishful thinking while dismissing it for what it is.”
I am sure that you, as a Zionist, can appreciate what would be largely considered wishful thinking. I call it “Constructively Naive.”
“You are flat out wrong. Muslim oppression of Jews was intermittent throughout the region's history and present in every Arabic speaking country. Maimonides himself wrote about it.”
Have to admit I had to look up who Maimonides was. Here is the wikipidiea entry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides
And the first link from it, also very interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain
Not sure it helps your argument much though.
“If you stay in denial about it, you fall afoul of Santayana's warning.”
One of my favorite quotes. " Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it " - George Santayana. Believe me; to heart.
Snoopythegoon
“Yes. We are trying, Karim. Not that we are always successful in it, especially after another "martyr" blows himself/herself up. It is not that easy to cope with own emotions.”
I know. I know how hard it is not to lose focus on the goal when one on your own “side” is lost. It’s mutual; I am sure you understand that. It’s also the prime reason for the spread of hatred. But we are decent human beings and it is our duty to our wives, God, kids, or whatever else we hold dear to overcome, persevere, and remain decent. The weak are the ones that submit. (Comment this)
No, I am judging by what happened to other minorities living in Arab countries. It ranged and ranges from genocide to mild discrimination. But none of it is acceptable.
"As odd a construct as one which resulted in the displacement of millions of Arabs?"
How could millions of Arabs have been displaced when the number of non-Jews in the mandate of Palestine was merely 1.2 millions (British count), including Druze. The official UN count of Arab refugees was, I think, 800,000.
And I do not know how many of the Arab refugees were really victims of the Israelis, rather than victims of Arab calls to leave Palestine while the war against the Jews was fought. I don't know how many Arabs could have stayed and become citizens of the Jewish state. (Whether it would have remained a Jewish state is questionable, which means it was probably in Israel's interest to get rid of as many Arabs as possible.)
I think the number of Jews fleeing Arab countries was greater. And they were neither recognised as refugees nor did they receive international aid. And I don't think the UN has ever talked about compensation for them.
The millions of Palestinian Arabs that exist today have been displaced not by Israel but by the Arab countries who kept them in refugee camps. Had Israel done the same to Arab Jews, I wouldn't want anything to do with Israel!
"I also remember a conversation I had with a reform Rabbi that was relevant to this. He was telling me how Reform Judaism, as opposed to the other sects, believes that Judaism is not the only way to heaven. When I asked “then why pick Judaism” he replied “Because Jews are a family.”"
Sometimes Reform rabbis really don't like Orthodox Judaism. The truth is that all Judaism believes that Judaism is not the only way to heaven. It is the basis of Judaism that everybody who follows the laws of Noah goes to heaven EXCEPT Jews. Jews have to follow 613 special laws, which are for Jews only.
In contrast to Christianity and Islam, Judaism is not universal (i.e. does not demand that everybody follows it) and therefor doesn't evangelise.
"I previously felt that maybe it was because there are only 15 million Jews in the world and they perpetually face hardship. Maybe there is more to it."
I think it's because Jews are a minority everywhere. To paraphrase Ephraim Kishon, the late Israeli columnist: Israel is the only country in which a Jew is not a Jew, but simply a human being. (This refers to being a Jew as in "being different", of course).
"Huh?"
Wars have been fought against Israel because the Palestinian Arabs absolutely have to live exactly there. It was accepted in the Arab world that Jews could be moved around freely. But apparently the same does not apply to Palestinian Arabs.
Germany assimilated millions of displaced Pommeranians, Silesians, and Prussians, thereby avoiding future conflict with Poland and Russia. Had the Arabs done the same for the displaced Palestinians the conflict would have been over before it really started. It was an Arab choice to keep the Palestinian refugees in camps rather than allow them to live as citizens. And it is that choice alone that caused the conflict.
I say it is that choice alone, because that decision was the ONLY decision which could have been made without a huge negative impact. European Jews had the choice of not moving to Palestine (but the alternative was really bad) and the Arab Jews could have remained in Arab countries (in those countries where they were not expelled; but it would have meant living like the other minorities, which was NOT acceptable).
But Palestinian Arabs could have assimilated and lived with their fellow Arabs. That was the point. Jews can live with Jews, Arabs could live with Arabs. Mix them up and you get a conflict. Mix up Arabs with any other group and you get a conflict. The same was once true for Germany. It can happen to any people. But it is more likely to happen to a people which defines itself as a common bloodline rather than a common culture, and to a culture which is failing.
Think about it: when Islam was the driving force for Arabs, when Arab culture was based not so much on tribalism but more so on a common culture, Arabs were one of the greatest civilisations. Than Arab nationalism came and destroyed it. (And by Islam I mean the Islam of old, not modern fundamentalism.)
I have the greatest respect for the traditional Arab kings, especially the King of Jordan.
But I have no respect for Arab nationalist dictators like Nasser or Saddam Hussein or artificial kings like the Saud family.
Bring back the proud Arab monarchies of old, and you have got something. Arabs have a lot to be proud of, but what many are currently fighting for is not part of that. (Comment this)
It must say something about the blogs author! (Comment this)
Well, indeed, a single incident shouldn't. But put away the airbrush and you have 1400 years replete with massacres and repression. Put away the airbrush, insist on Muslims looking at the dark side of their own history, and Muslims can join the world in admitting that they are not entitled to exercise mastery over others.
But if you insist on airbrushing, well, that's part of why I remain a snarling Zionist. (Comment this)
Anyway, my dad's take was that he thought it wasn't a great movie but very well shot (I agree with both) but that it did portray that the Israelis have a conscience and the Palestinians didn't.
Either way one of the murderers at Munich and several others in the Arab world have rejected the movie and said they are "proud" and "glad" about the barbaric (cowardly is the real word) act they committed. So much for Spielberg's recahcing out.
Look Karim the problem isn't you and me and honestly nor is it the majority of Israelis. It's the rejecitonism in the Arab and Palestinian world as a whole.
War is in the mind, and that is what you basically just stated in your post above and what Spielberg was trying to reach out to in the movie.
The state of mind in the Territories has gotten more irredentist in the last 10 years instead of less while the opposite has occured in Israel.
Everything else you postulate on and I may as well is meaningless. No matter how many nice articles and meaningless spins the NY Times and others in the West try and put on it and not report the reality in the West Bank about this fact what is written, said and aeducated there it doesn't change the facts.
By the way neither of those chicks are particularly good looking in the above post, certainly not the one playing the Jewish girl.... though the idea is certainly in the right place. :-)
Also, the movie unfortunattely is seen as a documentary even though Spielberg doesn't supposedly intend it to be on what happened at Munich. And that it certainly was not. The real story makes anyone much more sympathetic to taking out the murderers of Munich and also for being enraged at the Arrogant Condescending "Pacifist" German government at the time.
Mike (Comment this)
What are you, some kind of Buddhist?
Well, we've got lots of Jew-Boos, now we have a Moo-Boo. (Comment this)