Cartoons of the Prophet Mohamed, the Danish, and the Muslims
UPDATED AGAIN
Let me start off with my personal position. I was offended. Perhaps I wasn’t as offended as most Muslims; perhaps my heightened exposure to hurtful attacks on my religion because of what I do and the web sites I visit has left me less susceptible. For a crash course on what I am talking about go to LGF, pick a post at random, and read the comments.
Ever since this fiasco started I have received emails to boycott Danish products and to boycott the boycott. I wasn’t swayed to do either. Boycotts are a legitimate course of action that can yield serious results. I wasn’t offended enough to stop buying Danish (though I must admit I couldn’t figure a single Danish product I regularly buy anyway) but it is at the prerogative of a people to do so.
Karen Armstrong summed up the situation well.
“Each side needs to appreciate the other's point of view. I think it was criminally irresponsible to publish these cartoons. They have been an absolute gift to the extremists - it shows that the West is incurably Islamophobic. It sends a very bad message.
But, more seriously, it is letting ourselves down. We trumpet abroad about what a compassionate culture we are. But these cartoons depicting Muhammad as a terrorist are utterly inaccurate, feeding into an Islamophobia that has been a noxious element in Western culture since the time of the Crusades. It can only inflame matters at this very crucial juncture of our mutual history.
On the other hand, in a secular Europe, freedom of speech has developed as one of our sacred values. We fought hard for it, but we have to remember it carries responsibilities. For example, do we have a right to say whatever we want even if it is false and dangerous?
More importantly, however, freedom is as sacred a value for us as the Prophet is to Muslims.
We are seeing here a clash of two different notions of what is sacred and this is part of the modernizing process.
Modernization and secularization has this bumpy ride where people at different levels of modernization are clashing. In other parts of the world where modernization is not yet complete it is not regarded as a crucial as other sacred realities.
And now we are all living in this multicultural society cheek-by-jowl with one another, not even within a single country but we are linked to one another in our global village. We have to learn to live side by side better than this.”
Protests are also a legitimate tool. A live poll being conducted by MSNBC that asks “Are Muslims justified in staging worldwide protests over cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad?” is getting a clear “Yes” majority.
CNN, for example, had the corporate decency of making it their policy to not air the cartoons. It wouldn’t hurt for a few Muslims to show their appreciation which they can do here.
As long as it is non-violent these political tools can be very useful and are certainly justified. This also isn’t the first time we’ve seen consumer anger (freedom fries anyone?). As long as they stay non-violent I see no problem with them. I can also guarantee that any company with Middle East interests will avoid Jyllands-Posten advertising space.
As for the boycott the boycott idea, they are again completely within their rights to do so. I appreciate anyone that reacts to what they see as a wrong; people that actually do something about it. Popular support is what determines the success of these campaigns and the other way around is also true. Weighing the success of this campaign will also help gauge its popular support; a forgone conclusion in my opinion.
With all that said, the riots, storming of embassies and missions, and some of the ridicules slogans (my favorite was “behead anyone that says Islam is violent”) used at some of the protests are completely unacceptable. Most of these people are criminals that should be locked up. They also constitute the dumbest and most detrimental approach possible. The Arab world is one of the largest purchasing blocs in the world. Properly executed boycotts are enough to dip some company’s sales the 3-5% believed to be the marker to instigate change of policy. These violent acts do nothing but strengthen their resolve to see us as animalistic cavemen with whom compromise is impossible.
UPDATE: Iranian Paper Plans Holocaust Cartoons
These are the kind of immoral monkeys I was talking about.
Andrew Brehm just said in the comments
"The big problem here is that people dont really know what Mohamed represents for Islam"
Well, it's very very difficult for us to understand, given that Arab news papers publish so many cartoons that offend Jews.
Perhaps if Muslims showed the same respect for other religions that they expect for theirs, it would be easier for the west to understand what Muhammed means to Islam?”
I was just about to get on his case for getting off subject.
UPDATE 2: CAIR CONDEMNS IRANIAN HOLOCAUST CARTOON CONTEST
"Now is the time for responsible people of all faiths to avoid inflammatory actions that are clearly designed to incite hatred. We call on Hamshahri newspaper to drop its plans to denigrate the immense suffering caused by the Nazi Holocaust and urge the Iranian government to repudiate such an insensitive proposal.
"The Quran, Islam's revealed text, states: 'Goodness and evil cannot be equal.
Repel (evil) with something that is better. Then you will see that he with whom you had enmity will become your close friend. And no one will be granted such goodness except those who exercise patience and self-restraint.' (41:34-35)
"The Holocaust, like all other acts of genocide, represents one of the lowest moments in human history and should not be the subject of derogatory cartoons. One cannot demand responsible behavior from others while at the same time acting irresponsibly."
CONTACT: Ibrahim Hooper, 202-488-8787 or 202-744-7726, E-Mail: ihooper@cair-net.org
-Karim Elsahy
I also saw the cartoons that Danish Muslims made up and claimed were among the ones published in the news paper. One of them I found offensive. Muhammed being raped by a dog while praying is too much. Muhammed as a terrorist is an image Muslims have to thank the Iranians and Palestinians for.
It was not the Danish who made the connection between Islam and bombs, it was Iranian and Arab terrorists. Associating Islam with terrorism is wrong and I find it offensive. And that is why you should boycott Iran and Palestine.
But drawing cartoons about the association is certainly the lesser crime.
Lina: "Feeding the erupted fire of Islamophbia with non-justified violence and riots and vandalism!"
I have not seen an erupted fire of Islamophobia. But I have seen the erupted fire of Muslim western-phobia.
In anyway, we in the west are not entirely stupid. We have seen the anti-Semitic and anti-Christian cartoons in Arab news papers. We KNOW that you guys (Arabs) are NOT above that kind of humour. And that is why I cannot take your criticisms of these cartoons seriously.
I think I know that you personally, Karim, do not support anti-Semitic cartoons in Arab news papers in any way, but you obviously know about them.
Karen: “Each side needs to appreciate the other's point of view."
I appreciate the other's point of view. I have seen Arab cartoons. I know their point of view towards cartoons that offend other religions. I have now also seen the other's point of view regarding what the appropriate reaction to such cartoons should be.
But I didn't change my point of view.
I remain offended by anti-Semitic cartoons, and I remain of the opinion that I must not resort to violence to make my feelings known.
Perhaps more Muslims should learn to appreciate my point of view? I think we would be more productive if they did. (Comment this)
Having said that...I totally disagree with Armstrong that the publishing of these cartoons was criminal. Far from it. They were published as a protest against FEAR.
Could you explain why you were feeling so hurt by the cartoons? I thought the one about the virgins was just kind of ironic but the one with the bomb in the turban was stupid and not funny and was just a poor cartoon.
I feel bad that you were hurt by the cartoons but I just don't understand it. I'm trying though. (Comment this)
There was absolutely no racist intent in printing the caricatures in the Danish newspaper. Whether it was right or wrong to publish the caricatures is not really the issue anymore as this was supposed to be an internal matter in Denmark; but a handful of fascist Imams changed that.
In Denmark, sarcasm and ironi are absolutely normaly ways of communication and you will probably not find anyone as Godless as the Danes anywhere in the world. At the end of the Viking Age, we were forced to give up our original religion in order to prevent being crusaded into extinction. Our native religion was dynamically passed from generation to generation by word of mouth and it was very tolerant of other religions. We have never really forgotten this lax approach to religion and a mechanism to preserve 'the original Danishness' has always been to poke fun at all religions. It is the general opinion that if it does not help crying over spilled milk, then it is a lot better to laugh over it!
This is Danish culture and if you are in Denmark then you will have to live with it no matter if you like it or not! Of course we cannot force you or anybody else in the world to see things the same way - and we do not want to!
Humor is also a normal approach to discussing issues that would otherwise be uncomfortable or taboo. A few years ago there was a comedy ('Festen') about a 60 years birthday with complications. I think few other countries would bring up a discussion about incest through a comedy, but it did allow people to share their thoughts about this issue in a constructive way. Maybe that can be misunderstood outside Denmark, but what do I care? It is a Danish movie and it is meant for starting a discussion in Denmark!
If you threaten a Dane, mockery and humor is more likely to be the response as it is seen as a better alternative to futile agressiveness. This was the case when we were forced to accept Christianity, this was the case when we were forced to accept Nazi occupation (we did have a very active resistance movement though), and it is the case when rabid Imams (who have been welcomed to our country as refugees or immigrants) starts yelling about how worthless and infidel the Danish society is. This is not just a vain excuse, the Imams who escalated the situation are members of an organization who has it as a declared goal to introduce Islamic rule of law in Denmark.
As Denmark is a Democracy, we have to accept their rights to an opinion and can only ensure that they will be prosecuted every time they step over the line - such as calling for hatred or violence against somebody else which is forbidden by law. While it is relatively easy to 'police' the Neo-Nazis as they speak Danish, it is far more difficult to keep the crazy Imams in check when they preach hatred in Turkish or Arabic. In Denmark, there is no law against celebrating imagined superiority and how pure an Arian or Muslim one is as that would be a violation of the right to freedom of speech.
Back to the issue. The whole situation started with a childrens' book explaining Islam to Danish children, where the author could not find anybody to draw illustrations as they were afraid of the Muslim extremists in Denmark. Both Muslim extremism and Danish extremism (the Danish Peoples' Party) have grown in the past 10-15 years as they are both fuelling eachother in an unfortunate spiral.
The cartoonists were asked to depict Muhammed to show their generalizaton (that is the core concept of caricatures) of the radical Islam. That is why the caricatures were printed, in Denmark, to start a discussion about whether a small group of radical Muslims have the right to set the agenda in Danish society. As I said, whether it was right or wrong doesn't really matter, especially not to anybody outside Denmark. Fact is that it did happen and it actually started a healthy debate in Denmark from they were printed last summer until the rabid Imams from Copenhagen and Aarhus went on a a Middle East trip trailing lies and misconceptions.
After the caricatures were printed the rabid Imams exercised their democratic rights to have the case tested by the Danish courts to see if it can go to trial in court. Naturally, the Imams were refused to have the case tried in court as there was no laws being broken. According to the Danish way of life, you can ASK the courts to test a case if you feel offended or if you feel that wrongdoings have been committed against you. But contrary to the perception of the rabid Imams you cannot DEMAND a trial.
As the Danish court system could not be cowed by the rabid Imams they figured that they needed heavier artillery. So in a 'pure righteous ethical manner' the rabid Imams committed what the courts may deem as treason against Denmark - just to have it their Way!
Fact is that the rabid Imams were touring the Middle East and that A LOT of lies and/or misconceptions about the whole case followed in their trail.
Fact is that the rabid Imams claimed to represent 250,000 Muslims in Denmark. Fact is that their fascist organization represents about 5-8% of the about 180-200,000 Muslims living in Denmark. How many of the Danish Muslims who felt greatly offended is a big question. My guess is that a majority of them understands the society they live in and that the intentions were NOT to spread hatred against their being in Denmark!
Fact is that the rabid Imams lied or failed to correct the misconception that Jyllands-Posten is a government newspaper and a fascist newpaper. Whether it was intentional or not the courts will decide if the case goes to court.
Fact is that the rabid Imams lied or failed to correct the misconception that drawings of Muhammed as a paedophile, Muhammed depicted as a pig and a photograph of a praying Muslim being raped by a dog have been printed in Danish newspapters. Those are beyond what WOULD be printed in any Danish newspaper. I say WOULD, because the three images, complete with the 43 pages of rabid Muslim propaganda of which they form part (the documentation the rabid Imams brought with them on tour), have been printed on the website of a Danish newspaper to document the case! Whether this false impression was intentional or not the courts will decide if the case goes to court.
Fact is that the rabid Imams lied or failed to correct the misconception that publicly buring the Koran is the favorite pastime of the Danish population, that the Danish Government intends to publish an edited version of the Koran in Danish, and that Muslims are being persecuted and harassed every time they leave their home. Whether it was intentional or not the courts will decide if the case goes to court.
If a case against the rabid Imams goes to court, then it will be the first time the 'treason clauses' of the criminal code has been applied in peace time. Well, peace time is a fluid expression considering that it is the extremists on both sides who have hijacked the matter to serve their own ignorant purposes.
I am really annoyed by the whole situation, because it is not making it easier to be a 'normal' moderate Muslim in Denmark nor is it making it easier for the 'normal' moderate Danes (Muslim as non-Muslim) to 'fight' the increasing power of the right wingers on both sides.
I am a bit pessimistic about the resolution of the case, because we (I and other moderates) can only do our best to contain the right wingers of both kinds in Denmark while we have no influence on the Muslim right wingers who have hijacked the situation in the Middle East.
The latest I heard was that the head of the rabid Muslim Imams in Denmark wants to go on TV with the Prime Minister to defuse the situation, which I think is a really bad idea. He was the one to start the whole mess and if he is now endorsed as a 'peacemaker' then he will get even more power in Denmark. If we give in to him, then he has won the power-play for influence on extreme Muslims in Denmark where the Muhammed caricatures are just on piece of the puzzle!
What makes matters more complicated is that the newspaper and the Danish Government can go no further than they have by appologizing for the hurt feelings. We cannot and will not give in to a few Muslim extremists and punish anybody for something that is not illegal in Denmark.
Look at it this way: Muslims outside Denmark DEMANDS that Denmark changes their ways according to their moral values. We do not DEMAND that the Middle East accept human rights and women's emancipation according to our moral values. Are Danish moral values inferior to Middle Eastern moral values? Definitely not in Denmark!!! (Comment this)
Unfortunately, the especially irked people are getting over the top - well, with stupidity, but still:
http://www.arabeuropean.org/article.php?ID=97
It is a sad time. (Comment this)
Islam is above parents. So I think you too wouldn't like to see a cartoon where, for exemple, your mother is having sex with your brother or even yourself. It's not a good exemple but it can help undesrstand. The big problem, not only in this issue, is that we, western people, always want other people to think like we think.
And then we have people like Bush playin God and say "either u are with us either u are with the terrorists", I think we all have the right to stay out of these options and say we do not agree with terror but we do not agree with war policies either.
I believe all wars are territorials, there are no things such as "holly wars" or "ware on terror", It's all about territories: look at Palestine, 1st and 2nd World wars, vietnam, Gulf wars, and all wars you can think of. But many of our leaders use religion or abstract concepts such as terrorist. I say abstract cuz I don't really know what is a terrorist.
If you killed my brother and for revenge I'd go and kill your hole family wich one of us is a/the murderer? I'd say both of us.
One last thing, Alqaeda was created by the CIA during the afganistan war againts the russians, but in my opinion they never stoped working for the CIA. I mean who is Alqaeda? Bin Laden, Al Zawahiri and Al Zarkawi? 3 guys can create that much insecurity in the world? I really don't think so. I believe having Alqaeda around and Bin Laden Alive the Bush administration have a motive to make wars everywhere they want since, as they say, Bin Laden can be everywhere. (Comment this)
Protest is fine,and boycotting the newspaper is fine, but to punish a whole nation(s) is riduculous. (Comment this)
Protest is fine,and boycotting the newspaper is fine, but to punish a whole nation(s) is riduculous.
Written by: Stephen Reeves
I TOTALLY AGREE BUT THAT'S WHAT AMERICANS ARE DOING WITH AFGANISTAN, IRAK AND NOW IRAN (PUNISHING THE WHOLE NATION). WHO'S NEXT? NORTH KOREA? SYRIA? OR VENEZUELA? (Comment this)
"Borrowing from Karen Armstrong, this One Arab World blog entry makes some good points..." (Comment this)
I agree. And that is why Danish Muslims shouldn't have drawn the cartoon where Muhammed was being raped by a dog. The Danish news paper, of course, never published a cartoon like that.
"BUT THAT'S WHAT AMERICANS ARE DOING WITH AFGANISTAN, IRAK AND NOW IRAN (PUNISHING THE WHOLE NATION)."
Define "punishment". Do you think Afghanis and Iraqis see it as "punishment" that they are not living under the Taliban or Saddam any more? They said quite the opposite, but who are they to judge their lives, perhaps?
"WHO'S NEXT? NORTH KOREA?"
Another "punishment": millions of starving people would be fed.
"SYRIA? OR VENEZUELA?"
You have a weird definition of "punishment".
Andrew (born in a country "punished" by the Americans and alive because of same). (Comment this)
Well, it's very very difficult for us to understand, given that Arab news papers publish so many cartoons that offend Jews.
Perhaps if Muslims showed the same respect for other religions that they expect for theirs, it would be easier for the west to understand what Muhammed means to Islam? (Comment this)
"The big problem, not only in this issue, is that we, western people, always want other people to think like we think."
The Muhammed caricature case is about the exact opposite! The Danish newspaper published the images as a response to rabid Danish Imams having threatened Danish society to self-censorship beyond what is deemed reasonable in a secular society. It was a protest against fear of discussing anything related to Islam because of Danish Muslim extremists.
If it had remained a purely Danish discussion then freedom of speech and respect between Muslim and non-Muslim Danes would have won. Nobody had imagined that the rabid Imams would commit, what may be established by the courts to be, treason against the Danish state by misrepresenting the issues all over the Middle East.
The rabid Imams started the avalanche of extremist behavior by giving Saudi Arabia a convenient excuse to plaster the case all over their newspapers instead of the story about all the people who got killed during the pilgrimmage to Meccah.
Extremist opportunists have hijacked the discussion and it has nothing to do with freedom of speech anymore but is a matter of populistic manipulation of the masses in theocracies in the Middle East.
Create an outside enemy the people can focus on, because that relieves pressure on the enemy within!!! (Comment this)
"These are the kind of immoral monkeys I was talking about."
Yes! Weather we're immoral or moral; Iranians have got to be monkeys to put their necks out for arab A**HOLES like the likes of you and your retarded backward nations.
(Comment this)
Why can’t they stage worldwide protests over something substantial, like the government of Sudan, which is directing the murder of thousands of people? Isn’t a murderous government in a Muslim country more offensive than some stupid cartoon?
Secondly, this is an issue between the Danish newspaper and Danish Muslims, who were the ones offended. The rest of the world's Muslims really need to mind their own business. I've seen far worse depictions of Jesus in the US and the rest of the world's Christians didn't break into hysteria, threaten boycotts, burn the American flag, or threaten boycotts. There are worse things to get upset about than a religious insult in a country you don't even live in.
SnoopyTheGoon;
You said “One last thing, Alqaeda was created by the CIA during the afganistan war”
Wrong. Al Quada was created by Osama bin Ladin after Gulf War 1, many years after the Soviet invasion.
(Comment this)
You see, unfortunately I knew that I wasn't getting off subject. I could rely on some stupid extremists to do exactly that.
"Iranians have got to be monkeys to put their necks out for arab A**HOLES like the likes of you and your retarded backward nations."
Very good. If you are Iranian, insult the Arabs. I would love nothing more than a united Arab-Israeli front against the Persian nut. (Comment this)
sara (Comment this)
<b>I AM TIRED OF IT ALL</b>
Tired of the special treatment and deference Islam gets and demands in the West.
Tired of the filthy sub-human hatred printed DAILY** in newspapers in virtually EVERY Muslim country on the planet. Egypt among the WORST.
Tired of the fact we even have to debate the INSANITY of the Muslim reaction to some CARTOONS.
Tired of the way Muslims drag in Joooos to every conversation even an event that has NOTHING to do with Jooooos or Israel. (I don't want to fin hear it)
Tired of the vast sympathy in the Muslim world in the West and East to the violence and sticking it to the West.
Tired of hearing about the ""rampant Islamophobia" in the West while Muslims are burning down Embassies, calling for a Holy War, attacking and killing Catholic Priests, and destroying/demolishing others holy sites throughout the world.
THERE IS A COMPLETE DISCONNECT TO REALITY IN THE MUSLIM WORLD. It lives in the 16th Century Dark Ages and feels it is always wronged, always aggrieved, always downtrodden and its faults, shortcomings and problems are always others faults.
TIRED.... TIRED... TIRED...
The Culture War (more culuture than religious) is inevitable and due to predominately to the Muslim World not the West. This event has sealed it in my mind.
- Mike (Comment this)
PS I am an Episcopalian (moderate Protestant Christian) and I don't liek to see Christianity mocked in the press (has anyone here seen Southpark?), and I will try to change people's minds if I encoutner it, but this doesn not mean that I feel I have a right to force others to stop. I would never burn the Colordao State Society for Sotuhpark. I wouldn't even burn the Egyptian Embassy for some of the viscious, platenetly untrue articles written in the Egyptian press about the US. (Comment this)
(Comment this)
"Secondly, this is an issue between the Danish newspaper and Danish Muslims, who were the ones offended. The rest of the world's Muslims really need to mind their own business."
This is exactly the core of the whole matter, not insulting Mohammed, Muslims, or the Middle East. The matter is about sovereignty!
The caricatures were printed IN DENMARK to discuss whether a few rabid DANISH Imams have the right to cow the Danish society. In Denmark, the Constitution and all other democratic laws is (and always will be) on top of the hierarchy. The newspaper and the cartoonists were challenging that the Koran should be above DANISH LAW as demanded by a few rabid DANISH Imams.
In Denmark we have the right to say NEJ! (NO!, NON!, NEIN!...) to that regardless of what other nations think. In this instance it happened to be a no through Mohammed caricatures.
We CANNOT and WILL NOT give in to a few Muslim hooligans in the Middle East, because they are actually demanding that Mohammed and the Koran is higher than the Danish law. They can choose to put Mohammed, Taleban or whoever they want on top of their OWN society as long as that stays a matter WITHIN their own borders.
If they try to force changes according to their ways anywhere else they should not be surprised if they meet resistance in the form of caricatures or guns and bullets.
If I visit another country (Muslim or non-Muslim) then I find it natural that I have to honor their laws and traditions. Why is it that too many Muslims are too intolerant to understand that the same thing goes for them? (Comment this)
I'm happy that the radical imams of denmark, see people (muslim and non-muslim) turning away from their wicked and hatefull ways!
I just wish there were something we could do, to make the muslims of the world understand, that we absolutely dont hate or disrespect their religion - but is free to have an internal discussion in denmark about troublesome integrational issues!
I think that the muslim world just "torched" a lot of their allied in the western world - and I'm really sorry for the moderates in the middle east, that the radicals have taken over in this case I think the effect will be a blow to the arab- and palestinian cause!
I can onlyy URGE the moderates of the middle east to SPEAK UP - or the west will go this on their own, feed up with suicide bombers and radical hate-imams!
Please step forward, you good people of islam!
And stop hurting the innocent people of denmark... talk to the newspaper, please! (Comment this)
People only need to take a moment of their time to realise that Muslims live their lives on the basis of religion. Islam is a part of them, it is who they are. It is something that they practice on a daily basis.
As a non-practising Muslim, I still have found these cartoons extremely offensive. There are no words that can explain how much love Muslims have for their prophets. By portraying our last prophet as a terrorist was a below the belt move. What did they expect, us to laugh about it and see the funny side?
Mocking something that people believe in is not a joke, it is not funny. It is insulting.
I believe that theses cartoons were original published by a Danish chief editor who has a lack of basic knowledge in Islam and is extremely ignorant. Any knowledgeable person would have known of the consequences of just a sensitive publication. If his intentions were to cause uproar in the Muslim world then he sure has done a good job.
Knowledge comes from education. It is only when people are educated with just basic knowledge of Islam will they understand the current issue. The West and Europe keeps talking about and promising new ties with the Islamic world and then they go and insult the fundamental parts of our religion.
Many Muslims are now taking it as a personal threat to Islam when other countries are publishing theses pictures. Why? even after the current situation would other countries start reprinting them. They are truly rubbing salt in the wounds of a billion Muslims. You can not blame Muslim’s to feel that Europe and the west are mocking Islam and all that we believe. They say they are practising freedom of expression but in reality they are forcing the tiny minority of extremist to commit their atrocities and then show to the world the so called “true picture” of Islam and its followers.
I totally condemn the actions of violence that has been occurring world-wide due to the cartoons. It is wrong and must be stopped.
I believe that a world wide apology should be made by the countries responsible. It is a tricky subject when we talk about freedom of the press as most times the governments are not involved. But freedom of speech to some extent must come at a price.
Boycotting is the best form of protesting. If the Danes and other European countries can not understand why we are “so worked up” about just a few cartoons then maybe they will understand the financial loss that they will occur due to their irresponsible actions. I also do understand that the Danish and the residents of other European countries are not directly responsible, but I believe it is the only peaceful way of put our message across in order for this not to happen again.
I believe strongly in freedom of speech and in my religion. I also believe in respecting others. The media needs to understand what their limits are. Sometimes we need to put ourselves in the shoes of others.
I pray that this situation does not escalate to other forms of violence and hope it is resolved quickly.
The most valuable power we have is our knowledge, lets use this to help others understand.
Religion is all some people have in this world.
Please don’t mock it.
(Comment this)
I think the danes - that have been sitting painfully still in their sofas for the last weeks, not to offend or hurt anyone by accident - should join the Jooos and torch some Iranian embassies, wipe their asses with their flag, and boycot... ehh, boycot... I think they should boycot the bad hairdos and to just too big suits, the iranian looser-president has made high fashion in the middle east!
I'm of course being sarchastic - but cant you see? (Comment this)
Surely the countries responsible are those that allowed or encouraged the riots?
How can I take Muslim anger seriously when I know the anti-Christian and anti-Jewish cartoons in Arab news papers? The west didn't start the practice of publishing insulting cartoons. You guys did.
How can I take Muslim leaders seriously when they take a picture of a Frenchman, darken it, and claim it was a cartoon about Muhammed? (Why are they allowed to portray the prophet in such a way? Where is the outrage about that?)
How can I believe that Muslims are angry at Danish cartoonists for associating Islam with bombs when few Muslims seem to be as angry about Arab Palestinians and Iranians associating Islam with bombs BY USING THEM?
That was what the cartoon was mocking, btw. It was mocking the practice of killing innocent civilians in the name of Islam.
How can I believe any of you guys?
How can I believe that Islam is a religion of peace when so many people threaten violence while others keep telling us what we did wrong to cause these people to riot?
Danish cartoons didn't start this. Muslims did. There is something wrong with you people, not with the Danes. This is the one thing I believe you should understand. (Comment this)
Due to censorship, its not possible to face the above mentioned TV stations with their un-truths aired about the cartoon-incident. I will state the case here:
Several of the images, shown by the imams touring the middle east, never appeared in denmark: One, depicting a man with a pignose, is now found, taken from a childrens festival in France. BBC has now appologized for showing thaese pictures!
The other lies told was by radical imam Mahmoud Fouad al-Barazi, crying out "They want to torch the Qu'ran at an rally in the city center", said live on Al Jazeera in the face of 50 million muslims (Big lie - danes wouldnt even dream of suggesting it - its probably an sms passed among a few neonazis. A clear example of not being critical towards the source of the news!)
Abu Laban (another lying Imam), told the danish press that he would work for calming the extremely difficult situation - then he turned around to Al Arabia few minutes later, and told them he was happy that the arab world stood together building up this boycot!
They also told lies about denmark was to support an anti-muslim film, and that they supported a rewriting of the Qur'an, into something more moderate... A total fantasy
Mahmoud Fouad al-Barazi the radical imam, also told Al Jazeera, that the kindergartens of denmark is used to whipe out the muslim comunities by asimilation... not true: Danish people and Denmark pays for arab schools in denmark!
And last but not least: the infamous rejection by the prime minister, to meet with the diplomates in the first place, were not because it was a matter of free-speech, as refered on Al Jazeera homepage - it was because the diplomats wanted the prime minister to take legal action towards the cartoon newspaper - which is a totally absurd request. He can't do that! (but he ought to have invited them anyway - but thats another discussion!)
Will the "free" arab press take meassures to correct these wrongs - in the face of their more than 50 million viewers - or will they forever be considered lying and hate-instigating media of the arab world?!
It is a most serious matter, for the relation between the west and the arab world! (Comment this)
I believe the editor in question has a great deal of knowledge about Islam.
It's just that his teachers taught him the wrong picture of it. Perhaps if Islam had more peaceful preachers and fewer violent protesters and killers, the editor's knowledge of Islam would have been different. (Comment this)
In denmark you can say that the holocaust didn't happen - but it makes us stronger to have free speech, because everytime some idiot bursts out with comments like this - we can see that idiot, and we can teach our children in school to show respect, and we can talk about what we know... its a much STRONGER way of dealing with lies - of course the debate can sometimes get a little heated; but truth prevails, because we have to keep telling eachother about whats right and whats not!
This have also implied to other discussions in our society: as with neo-nazis, radical islamism, integration and such.
Understand that the danes might have the most free discussion of political and religious topics in the whole world - and we are proud of it!
(we are not proud if some newspaper offended the muslims unnecesarily, but we are proud that we can debate freely!) (Comment this)
You said “You can not blame Muslim’s to feel that Europe and the west are mocking Islam and all that we believe. They say they are practising freedom of expression but in reality they are forcing the tiny minority of extremist to commit their atrocities and then show to the world the so called “true picture” of Islam and its followers.”
It’s an absolute crock to say that the Europeans are “forcing” Islamic radicals to commit atrocities. When will you stop deflecting blame to others and acknowledge the self-created demons in your midst?
Middle-eastern newspapers and mosques, regularly – that bears repeating – REGULARLY – spit out very vile material about Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims. Up until recently, the Grand Mosque in Mecca, your holiest place, was well known for hateful sermons against non-believers. How can you demand respect from others when your own societies don’t even practice it themselves?
(Comment this)
I have been trying to explain the matter seen from the Danish side and have been trying to explain parts of Danish culture. But instead of responding with counter-arguments to explain your opinion you just rant on with "There is a total lack of basic Islamic knowledge in the Western world.". I am sorry, but you are giving the impression that Muslims are simple, one-track minded people and I know that is not true.
Like too many other contact shy Muslims you are hiding behind Islam and crying about how misunderstood you are. Did you ever think about that understanding and respect works the best if it is mutual?
You are giving me a pretty clear message about that you think non-Muslims have to learn about Islam and that you, as a Muslim, should just sit back and wait for us, westerners, to realize our evil ways and adopt the teachings of Islam. Please correct me if I am wrong about your intollerance!
Instead of using the caricatures to start a dialog about WHY do a lot of non-Muslim people think that Islam is synonymous with terrorism it just triggers the Muslim jinggle about being misunderstood.
I do not expect anybody to learn about Denmark, but I have tried to explain about Denmark because it is relevant to this case. Why do you immediately write off that you could potentially learn something and why don't you tell me something I do not know?
You have jumped on the bandwagon to promote a boycot of Denmark and Danish products, but do you not realize your own hypocricy?
One side of your face asks for understanding of Islam and for respect for Muslims, but the other side of you face says that European values have to change because they are not worthy of Muslim respect. Moral standards are good, double standards are not double as good!
And now we are back to the core of the matter. We, in Denmark, did not expect you to find the caricatures amusing. That is not a surprise. However, the caricatures were intended for a discussion IN DENMARK according to DANISH culture.
You say about the Danish editor: "If his intentions were to cause uproar in the Muslim world then he sure has done a good job." and at the same time you talk about knowledge.
If you had knowledge then you would know that the only reason why anybody outside Denmark even knows the caricatures exists is because a few fascist Muslim fundamentalists from Denmark brought them to you together with a lot of lies. And, it is very well established that the said fascist Muslims did not do so in order to spread understanding between Denmark and the Middle East.
Let's call a shit for a shit and a shovel for a shovel. If you ask for my understanding of your opinion, then fine with me. If you ask me to follow you opinion, then you are not asking for my understanding, but for my submission. That you will never ever get as long as I am alive! (Comment this)
The Culture War is INEVITABLE.... no more need to explain, debate or trying to explain logically and calmly.
And this site is by a true moderate imagine what "logic" is being pushed at other Arab weblogs.
- Mike (Comment this)
I think organised religion is a farce and turns normally rational people into fanactical, raving lunatics willing to murder and kill in the name of their beliefs...while funnily enough promoting their faith as one of peace...
some religions are worse than other though..and i believe that without a doubt Christianity, Islam, Judaism and many scriptures in HInduism...are very sexist...misoginist (Comment this)
So I take it that you don't know that it was Muslims who attacked Europeans, and not vice versa? (Comment this)
Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...
Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...
You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.
Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.
(Comment this)
The "Buy Dansih" campaign has exploded in the US and in Germany and is spreading, newspapers report.
If you search google for "Buy Danish", more than a 100.000 hits comes up!
Danish exporters as Arla, Lego and Carlsberg expects a bigger income from this, than the lost suffered from the arab boycot!
The reason why it has backfired is, according to the newspaper, the disgust people are having with the reactions from the arab world. (Comment this)
Please forward this link to every arab internetsite: here is information in arabic about the controversy: It the Danish Foreign Ministry - please read!
http://www.um.dk/en
Peace! (Comment this)
You said “who is the terrorist ?the answer is you european people and israel and usa”
The biggest killers of Muslims are other Muslims. The slaughter of 40,000 civilians in Hama by the Syrian government, the 300,000 dead souls lying in Saddam’s grave, the Algerian and Lebanese civil wars, and the current genocide in Darfur – I notice how all these spectacles are invisible to you.
(Comment this)
It should also be mentioned that Israel would have no reason to kill Muslims if Muslims stopped attacking Israel.
Yet, they never stop. But they are ever surprised when the Jews fight back. (Comment this)
I remember an inteview - some american lady saying quetly, that she felt weird seeing her flag burn, and an angry mob of thousands, stamp on it resenting everything the society she lived in stood for.
I dont know why, but that image has always been pretty clear in my memory, though I really didn't understand her feelings... I do now!
But I really cant understand this giant wave of people in anger and violent trance, totally out of reach, torching our embassies and flags - this religious outrage, because of a cartoon... its really difficult to explain to your child, when you really dont understand it yourself! (Comment this)
I can understand the israel issue, that if some one just comes into ur house and says its theirs...its not fair.
But what abt pakistan? hub of terrorism, there is a bombaing almost every other day in india and innocent people are killed, just dont hear abt it as it does not affect the US. I am interested to hear wht muslims here think.
I have quite a few muslim friends who are although not pleased with these pictures being printed but are certainly not reacting so dramatically. In the past there have been cartoons of christ, hindu gods etc, is all over the internet and in cartoon columns in newspapers. There is a softer side to life and these people should take it in the stride. why does every action be deemed with violance?
The fact is as some people have already mentioned above...that majority of muslims are still livin in the 16th century and therefore as a community have not advanced! (Comment this)
peace maker in history(at least for us ). He spent his life calling for peace ,not punishing unless he had to (for those who have different ideas, Im ready to discuss it with them ).I know there are many misconceptions about Islam in the West .
Some explained here about the Danish culture ,well ,I think u ought to know about the Muslims and Arabs conditions now too.
Part of the Arab countries are occupied by Israel .Israel killed ,tortured and kicked a large number of them from their land .Believe it or not , but almost every day men, children ,women are killed by Israelis. This is not a political statement but this is from a person who knows very closely people living all that.
The West almost turned a blind eye to that , I must admit that Europe was better than America ,who totally supports Israel , but many hurt Arabs don't differentiate between them (we have to change that ,some intellectuals were successfully working on that but the recent events destroyed many of their achievements ). I believe that whoever wanted the recent problem to spread widely, was irritated because of the almost good relations between Europe and the Arab countries.
the massacre of many Muslims in Bosnia , Chechnya and different parts of the world without the responsible ones for that being punished made some youths go crazy!!!!
Then comes 9/11 ,since then Islam is widely attacked ,normal moderate muslims who are 90% of the Muslims don't understand why we all have to blamed , punished and insulted because of this group whom America created and even fed !!!In the name of fighting terrorism , Muslims have no rights ,no dignity ,they are usually discriminated against.
You talked about terrorist attacks in your countries ,they are not only in the west but in our countries (I know people who were killed in a wedding in Jordan )we don't get it till now ,but as a Muslim I tell u this is not Islam.
how can u ask us to stop bombing your people, when all what we know about these terrorists is what u people know from media (me and many of my friends doubt that they are Muslims).
In the Qur'an, the Creator unambiguously states:)
[17:33] Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)
Based on this verse, it is Islamically unlawful to murder
anyone who is innocent of certain crimes, (there are many verses supporting that but i didn't have time to look all of them up ,but if u want I will).
but their were claims from some ignorant that the Holy Qur'an fuels these terrorists . That was very annoying to many muslims.
Then comes the "Hijab" problem in France ,when Muslim girls were prevented from wearing their headscarves (which by the way were harmless and not used to hide bombs) . This disrespect of Islam which also comes as part of the western ignorance of it ,
offended many Muslims ( frankly i couldn't believe it first, I
never believed that Islam would be so humiliated like that,why?)
how could they prevent a girl from education , just because she is wearing a headscarf !!!!!
And after all that they make Prophet Mohamed ,in the name of freedom of speech ,now Muslims are so FED UP , as u see its not an isolated incident , after all what we are tolerating .I tried to explain things to u but a don't think u will understand because u are not living what we are living .Yes this is TOO much ,what has our beloved prophet to do with TERRORISM ?some "so called" Muslims make mistakes and Prophet Mohammed is blamed ,that is really too much.
I know many who almost cried after seeing the "funny" cartoons. Now if u really don't care that is so inhumane.
Almost every Muslim memorize Prophet Mohammed's biography he is our beloved idol , i don't expect u to understand that because u don't know who he really is ,but that doesn't give anyone the right to draw "funny" cartoons about him.
(Comment this)
While it's undeniably true that Israelis are pushing the Palestinians off their land, the Palestinians have made a very poor case for themselves. Had they tried the Gandhi approach first, they would have had the moral high ground. Instead they blow up their young men with promises of heavenly orgies, murder civilians, and cut out the organs of freshly killed Israeli soldiers and run with them through the streets while yelling like madmen. It is difficult to feel symmpathy for such people.
The cartoon charade saw them attacking the EU building (and Denmark doesn't belong to the EU), burning Danish flags, and searching through hotels for a Danish hostage.
Such repulsive behavior ought to make Europe consider cutting off all aid. It might lead to some political maturity. (Comment this)
Everyday, muslims burn the cross - the strongest symbol of the christian faith. The danis flag - one of the worlds oldest - is a cross, symbolising their change from pagan- (viking) belief, into christianity.
Everyday you burn the cross, asking for respect to the holiest thing of your faith - how can this be?
How can you burn the most sacred thing of another religion, to ask for respect?
Will muslims ask themselves this question - will they look into their heart, and see that they are not acting in accordance with a peacefull religion?!
Peace, respect and tolerance to us all! (Comment this)
You said "Part of the Arab countries are occupied by Israel ."
Which has nothing to do with Danish cartoons, Danish newspapers, or Denmark. I notice how many Muslims keep deflecting to that same tired topic any time the cartoons are discussed. It's about as relevant as the moons of Saturn.
------------------
You say "The West almost turned a blind eye to that"
The West would like to see the conflict resolved as much as you do. However, the West cannot fix every clogged toilet in the world, even if it wanted to. And Israel is not a Western country.
All the Arab crying over the Palestinians is crocodile tears. You do precious little to help them. Except for Jordan and Lebanon, none of your countries will offer them asylum. Kuwait expelled over 100,000 Palestinians. They are treated like second class citizens in many middle-eastern countries. For all the oil wealth that exists in the Gulf, how come none of it goes to improve their lot? About 70% of the West Bank population is living off UN aid. The place is a slum. Why can't those oily princes spend some of their millions improving Palestinian lives instead of pissing it away on more palaces?
------------------
You say "Almost every Muslim memorize Prophet Mohammed's biography he is our beloved idol , i don't expect u to understand that because u don't know who he really is ,but that doesn't give anyone the right to draw "funny" cartoons about him"
Yes, it does. Non-Muslims do not revere Mohammad and therefore have no restriction on drawing him. You cannot force other to respect the rules of your religion and they cannot force you to respect theirs.
-------------------
You say "Then comes 9/11 , ... punished and insulted because of this group whom America created and even fed "
Al Quada was created and fed by bin ladin with his own money, not America's. America does not even serve halal food. (Comment this)
I didn't blame the west for not solving the palistinian issue , of course many Arab countries are blamed ,but u have to differentiate between GOVERNMENTS and people . I don’t speak in the name of governments who have done nothing to Palestine ,but Arab people did a lot, at least what they can ,in my country we have many organizations to help orphans in Palestine , I personally know at least a hundred who send them money to educate orphan children there. So we didn't leave them but doing as much as we can afford . I'm not a millionaire and I know none of them. But I know many in the gulf countries (who happen to be also normal citizens) who donate as much as the can to help rebuilding houses Israel destroys every day .
You said:You cannot force other to respect the rules of your religion and they cannot force you to respect theirs.
I wont force you ,but to live with other people PEACFULLY , you have to respect their believes no matter how different they are ,this is what a civilized person do ,if not respect at least do not insult them ,am I asking for too much here !!! im not talking about Islam here but every single religion .you were not offended in a precious thing here that’s why you do not care .
America supported bin ladin in the Afghan war against Russian with money and weapons , and after it lost control of him he became a terrorist .
You said "America does not even serve halal food
What al qaeda has to do with halal food ??,its something to do with Islam ,every muslim eats halal food that doesn't make them members of al qaeda
.
(Comment this)
Try to think about how much support you have torched in the last week, from the western world - and worst of all, from the people of the western world - who cannot comprehend the idea, that an unintended insult from a cartoon, costs life, and stir up this kind of riot! Just think about it - lives have been lost! (Comment this)
Denmark IS member of the EU and has been since 1972!
Denmark was the FIRST 'Western' country to recognize Palestine as a state!
Most Danes DO know about the abuse of Palestinians (the Danish media has referred to Palestinians as 'State-less Palestinians' as far back as I can remember!
Most Danes DO know about the many 'not so clean' motives behind the US invasion of Iraq (corruption, cronyism, and desire for hegemony)!
So, dear Muslims,
Before you brand Danes as ignorant of the Middle East issues then consider that if a Dane and an Arab had a competition about knowledge of the other part's issues then the Dane will most likely come out as the 'more knowledgable'!
Before you brand Danes as intollerant of Islam and the Middle East then you should consider which population has given more moral support to the other part's issues. A majority of Danes (and Norwegians for that matter) have always taken side with the Palestinians (not because they do not like Jews, but because Israeli apartheid is wrong), a majority of Danes (and Norwegians) are against the war in Iraq (though Denmark has a couple of hundred soldiers there), and a majority of Danes (as well as Norwegians) recognize that US intentions are not always as 'pure' as they claim them to be (though most of our politicians are kissing up to G.W.Bush). Do you, as a Muslim, think that a couple of insensitive images printed by a Danish newspaper invalidates all these years of support?
I am not asking for your gratitude, just your answer to whether punishing Danes and Norwegians into submission (you have gotten our apology for hurting your feelings, but you will not get an apology for having freedom of speech - regardless of whether it has been abused by Jyllands-Posten or not) is more important for you than having 'Western' support when US weapons of mass destruction (cluster bombs, depleted uranium bullets, and landmines) are flying around your ears?
I am getting really tired of these politically motivated agressions against Denmark and, though I will still think that many of the things done against countries and people in the Middle East are wrong, I will soon have to reconsider whether I will continue to be a vocal supporter of your issues!!!!!!!
Respect is a two-way street and friendship means that you forgive the other part when he/she makes a mistake. (Comment this)
Yes, there are. It's quite simple, really. Muslims have as much love for their prophet as Jews have for their holy city and the land of Israel.
Think about that the next time you read anything about Israel in the Arab press.
I always thought that Arab Palestinians are in the best position to understand why Jews wanted their own country and not live under other people's rule.
Now I think that all Muslims should be able to understand how Jews feel EVERY DAY when Arab news papers and countries claim that Israel is Arab land.
"the Danish media has referred to Palestinians as 'State-less Palestinians' as far back as I can remember!"
Do the Danish media also refer to sephardic Jews who fled from Arab countries as 'state-less Jews', or have they acknowledge that Israel did for them what the Arab countries apparently were unwilling to do for fellow Arabs?
"While it's undeniably true that Israelis are pushing the Palestinians off their land,"
Why is that undeniably true? I have heard of many opinions regarding that. Some claim that the "Palestinians" were expelled by the Jews, some claim that the Jews asked them to stay and that Arab countries asked them to leave so they could attack. (For the second I have seen proof in the form of news paper articles.)
You might very well be right, but it is certainly false to claim that what you believe is "undeniably true"; or have you never heard of the other claims?
Answer me this: after the Arabs tried to eradicate Israel the first time, should Israel have kept a hostile population of sworn enemies inside her borders? What would have happened to the Jews?
(I assume their fate would have been the same as other minorities' in the Arab world. What's your guess?) (Comment this)
"Now I think that all Muslims should be able to understand how Jews feel EVERY DAY when Arab news papers and countries claim that Israel is Arab land."
Well, it would have been so easy if things were only black and white! As a matter of fact, part of Israel IS Palestinian land. When Israel move their land-grabbing wall back onto the internatinally recognized borders of Israel and when Israel abandons ALL illegal settlements, and when Israel ends the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, then maybe you have a point. Until then you should stop crying and have a cookie.
Andrew Brehm:
"Do the Danish media also refer to sephardic Jews who fled from Arab countries as 'state-less Jews', or have they acknowledge that Israel did for them what the Arab countries apparently were unwilling to do for fellow Arabs?"
To be honest, I had never heard about Sephardic Jews before, so I went to Wikipedia for some enlightenemnent.
Among others, Wikipedia says: A Sephardi is a Jew originating in the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal), including those subject to expulsion from Spain (1492)...or from Portugal (1497).
What does a group of Jews originating from Spain/Portugal hundred of years ago to do with the discussion?
Anyway, they were not expelled from a state called 'Sepharicland' (or the like) but from the countries of Spain and Portugal. Therefore, they can never be labeled as 'state-less' since they did not live as a large majority in an area belonging to them. Not before the modern concept of borders was invented and not after!
Correct me if I am wrong, but until about 60 years ago, both the areas internatinally recognized as Israel and Palestine had a Jewish minority (about 10% if I am not wrong) for HUNDREDS of generations! Hence from the time the Palestinians were expelled from Israel (and the area of Palestine got occupied by Israel) and until Palestine finally belongs to Palestinians as their own state, then 'state-less Palestinian' is a technically correct term! (Comment this)
Things are that black and white. Jerusalem is as holy to Jews as Muhammed is to Islam.
The "land-grabbing" Israel only occupies the Arab part of Palestine because when Israel did not, the Arabs used that land to attack Israel. Since the occupation there is peace. If the Arabs can convince Israel that the land won't be used for attacks any more, I am sure Israel would give it "back" (to Jordan and Egypt) or to the Arab Palestinians.
Minus some land that Israel simply ought to have as reparations. It's impossible to turn back the clock. The Arabs have attacked and lost, several times. There are consequences. And the earlier the attacks on Israel stop, the more of what was once Arab land will there be left for Arabs.
The same happened to Germany, so don't tell me that this is some weird special treatment born out of Islamophia or some such.
I myself would be perfectly happy with disbanding all Jewish settlements in the Arab part and all Arab settlements in the Jewish part of Palestine, create an Arab state based on the 1968 borders minus Jerusalem, and a return of the Golan heights to a _democratic and friendly_ Syria (after reparatations are paid and after Syria apologises for the attacks) IF the Druze inhabitans of the Golan want to become Syrian again.
But it looks like the Arab state will be somewhat smaller than that, because of the fence. Of course the fence wouldn't be necessary if the attacks stopped. And there we are again.
The Arab Palestinians could have had their state in 1948, between then and 1968, and in 2000. They always rejected it. Don't blame Israel for the Arabs' inability to stop fighting.
BTW to call it "land-grabbing" when Israel is fighting for her existence is blatant anti-Semitism and nothing else. "Land-grabbing" is what Jordan and Egypt did when they tried to invade Israel and DID invade the Arab part of Palestine AND kept that land. That's what "land-grabbing" is.
I don't have any sympathy for a country that attacks a neighbour, loses, and then cries that it wants the lost territory back from the evil aggressor; none at all.
I was born in Germany and I know exactly how it feels to lose territory after attacking somebody. But I neither support terrorist attacks against Poland nor do I find any excuses for the Nazi nuts who still argue that Germany must get that land back.
"Until then you should stop crying and have a cookie."
And that is, I suppose, the western attitude towards Muslim outrage about Muhammed.
I am glad that you understand now.
"What does a group of Jews originating from Spain/Portugal hundred of years ago to do with the discussion?"
You should have read the entire article or at least the introduction:
Wikipedia: "In the vernacular of modern-day Israel, Sephardi has also come to be used as an umbrella term for any Jewish person who is not Ashkenazi - Ashkenazim have for several generations constituted the bulk of world Jewry."
Sephardic Jews means the Jews of the Arab world. It was a term to describe the Jews of Spain/Portugal and Morocco, but that was 600 years ago. I was talking about 60 years ago and today.
"Anyway, they were not expelled from a state called 'Sepharicland' (or the like) but from the countries of Spain and Portugal. Therefore, they can never be labeled as 'state-less' since they did not live as a large majority in an area belonging to them. Not before the modern concept of borders was invented and not after!"
They were expelled from Spain by the Christians and from Arab countries by Arabs. (Again, some left out of fear of further discrimination, some were not allowed to leave, some died.)
I don't appreciate the idea that state-less Jews cannot be labeled as state-less. Sephardic Jews who fled from Arab countries are just as state-less as Arab Palestinians. There is no magical difference between the two.
"Correct me if I am wrong, but until about 60 years ago, both the areas internatinally recognized as Israel and Palestine had a Jewish minority (about 10% if I am not wrong) for HUNDREDS of generations!"
That's because the Jews were expelled from the area and then forbidden to settle there. But they must live somewhere. And you cannot convince me that life as a hated minority in Arab countries is an alternative. It isn't.
"Hence from the time the Palestinians were expelled from Israel (and the area of Palestine got occupied by Israel) and until Palestine finally belongs to Palestinians as their own state, then 'state-less Palestinian' is a technically correct term!"
Again, it is NOT an undeniable fact that the "Palestinians" were expelled from Israel. I told you that I read news paper articles of the time that told a different story. You cannot just take your opinion and present it as a recognized fact.
The "Palestinians" (I always put that in quotes, because the term excludes Jews who, as you said, had lived there for hundreds of generations as a minority, but we will come to that) could have had their state. The reason they don't have one is because they always rejected it. It's not my fault, it's not Israel's fault, it's their fault and the fault of the Arab countries that invaded and kept their land in 1948.
BTW a generation is 30 years and hundreds of 30 years are at least 3000 years (one hundred). The first Arabs didn't arrive in large numbers until after Muhammed. So don't tell me Jews have been a minority in their own land for hundreds of generations. They were only a minority when they weren't allowed on the land.
As for the state-less "Palestinians", I believe Jordan has offered all of them citizenship. They are as state-less as they want to be, just like sephardic Jews.
What happened to the "Palestinians" is tragic, but it is not more tragic than what happened to the Jews, and it was caused by the same people: Arab nationalists.
Arab nationalists have turned an Arab population of half a million into a people of "refugees" of 4 or 5 million. Israel never had an interest in making the "Palestinians" look like victims. But Arab dictators still have that interest.
That is why Arab dictators put the "Palestinians" in concentration camps (or refugee camps, call them what you will). And that is why they protested in the UN when Israel started housing projects for the inhabitants of "refugee camps". And that is why they kept attacking Israel instead of spending the same money on assimilating "Palestinians" into their society.
Heck, if Arab countries simply gave the property they took from sephardic Jews who left for Israel to the "Palestinians", we would be a huge step towards solving their poverty problem, wouldn't we?
Perhaps Israel should compensate the Arabs who left Israel. Perhaps the Arab countries should compensate the Jews who left for Israel. I am sure you will find a reason for why only one of the groups deserves help and support.
Sorry for the change of subject. But we did cover the Muhammed thing. My opponent now surely understand the attitude of the west, given that he is just as prone to taking it as many in the west are.
And if I started rioting about his remarks about Jerusalem, I would be as evil and wrong as those Muslims who do exactly that over a cartoon.
I also don't have the time. (Comment this)
But like I said, I'm angry, because a cartoon using Prophet Muhammad is directed to me, too, even if it is printed in Denmark. It makes me start to wonder if Danes are friendly to me, wonder what they really think of me, and whether it was naive of me to consider them friendly.
However, whether I consider Danes friends or not, I do have an obligation to mitigate unjustified anger where I see it, and I will try. (Comment this)
Christians and Jews and Muslims have lived together in Jerusalem for hundreds of years, barring intermittent periods of strife. It is only in modern times that things developed into such bitter, intractable conflict. (Comment this)
Christians and Jews and Muslims have lived together in Jerusalem for hundreds of years, barring intermittent periods of strife. It is only in modern times that things developed into such bitter, intractable conflict. (Comment this)
You said “America supported bin ladin in the Afghan war against Russian with money and weapons , and after it lost control of him he became a terrorist”
No. The US did not even know who bin ladin was until after Gulf War 1. Bin Ladin formed Al Qaeda to get American troops out of Saudi Arabia. He did it all with his money.
You said “but it was the BEGINING of the whole problem between Muslims and the west , of the injustice that many Muslims feel now , then many events followed to fire things up every time”
It is Israel that is harassing the Palestinians, not the West. The West is not oppressing Muslims, Rama. The West is not committing injustice against the world’s Muslims. The oppressors of Muslims are other Muslims. Muslim governments are among the most corrupt and tyrannical in the world. When Muslims stop blaming outsiders for their problems, they will be on their way to solving them.
You said “I wont force you ,but to live with other people PEACFULLY , you have to respect their believes no matter how different they are”
I agree it’s good manners not to insult the beliefs of others, but that should be because you respect them as people, not because you respect their ability to bomb you.
The cartoons were printed in Denmark for a Danish audience. If you aren’t Danish, why is it any of your business? The West has depicted Jesus in more disgusting ways and when did you ever see Christians rioting, attacking embassies, or burning flags all over the world? The answer is Never.
Muslims must understand they live in a globalized world. There are millions of other people who don’t keep the same things sacred. Time to grow up.
----------------------------
Thomas The Moderate Dane;
You said “Most Danes DO know about the many 'not so clean' motives behind the US invasion of Iraq (corruption, cronyism, and desire for hegemony)!”
Rubbish. If the US wanted the Iraq’s oil, it would have cut a deal with Saddam. Hegemony? Iraq is a third world country, full of third world problems. The US has no interest in owning it.
The term Sephardic also refers to middle-eastern Jews. The term Ashkenasi refers to European Jews.
-----------------
Andrew Brehm;
You said “Why is that undeniably true? I have heard of many opinions regarding that.”
It is a fact, not an opinion, that the Israelis are pushing the Palestinians off their land to pursue a greater Israel. That is happening NOW. I don’t care what happened in 1967 or 1973. I abhor people who strap bombs to their sons, but religious crazies on both sides keep throwing tinder on the fire. The Palestinians (and the Arabs) need to accept the finality of 1948. The country of Israel is there to stay. The Israelis need to accept the fact that the Palestinians need a place to live. The settlement expansion must stop.
(Comment this)
You said “The West gave it to Jews post WW2 when it wasn't theirs to give, without asking the people already living there if it was ok"
The Ottomans lost World War 1 and the victor got control of the land, a common occurrence in war. So yes, the land did belong to the Western victors. Countries gain and lose territory after wars, and borders get shifted around. Just ask Poland and Germany.
That’s just the way it is, right or wrong, fair or not.
(Comment this)
That is not what I doubted. I wouldn't call it a "greater Israel" though.
I said that I didn't care for the settlements.
(But what about settlements like in Hebron, where Jews have lived for thousands of years?)
(And what about Arab settlements in Israel?)
"The Israelis need to accept the fact that the Palestinians need a place to live. The settlement expansion must stop."
The Israelis have always accepted that. And the Arabs could have had their state many many times but they always rejected it, the las