An intoxicatingly frank discussion on…us…today’s Arabs
Source MEMRI
Renowned Syrian Poet "Adonis": The Arabs are Extinct, Like the Sumerians, Greeks, and Pharaohs; If the Arabs are So Inept They Cannot Be Democratic, External Intervention Will Not Make Them So
The following are excerpts from an interview with Syrian poet "Adonis," aired on Dubai TV on March 11, 2006. (Click here to view the clip)
Adonis: "Words are treated as a crime today. Throughout history, there has never been anything similar to what's happening today in our Arab society - when you say a word, it is like committing a crime."
Click “Read More” below to see the whole thing. (It is defiantly worth a read)
I am very interested in getting some Arab opinion on this.Interviewer: "True."
Adonis: "Words and opinions are treated as a crime. This is inconceivable."
Interviewer: "You can be arrested for writing an article."
Adonis: "That's one example."
[...]
"In the Koran itself, it says that Allah listened to his first enemy, Satan, and Satan refused to obey him. I believe that Allah was capable of wiping out Satan, yet He listened to Satan's refusal to obey Him.
"At the very least, we demand that Muslims today listen to people with different opinions."
[...]
Interviewer: "How do you view the plan for democracy, the 'Greater Middle East' plan?"
Adonis: "First of all, I oppose any external intervention in Arab affairs. If the Arabs are so inept that they cannot be democratic by themselves, they can never be democratic through the intervention of others.
"If we want to be democratic, we must be so by ourselves. But the preconditions for democracy do not exist in Arab society, and cannot exist unless religion is reexamined in a new and accurate way, and unless religion becomes a personal and spiritual experience, which must be respected.
"On the other hand, all issues pertaining to civil and human affairs must be left up to the law and to the people themselves."
Interviewer: "Mr. Adonis, how do you view the democracy in Palestine, which brought Hamas to power?"
Adonis: "I support it, but I oppose the establishment of any state on the basis of religion, even if it's done by Hamas."
Interviewer: "Even if it liberates Palestine?"
Adonis: "Yes, because in such a case, it would be my duty to fight this religious state."
[...]
Interviewer: "What are the reasons for growing glorification of dictatorships - sometimes in the name of pan-Arabism, and other times in the name of rejecting foreigners? The glorification comes even from the elites, as can be seen, for example, in the Saddam Hussein trial, and in all the people who support him."
Adonis: "This phenomenon is very dangerous, and I believe it has to do with the concept of 'oneness,' which is reflected - in practical or political terms - in the concept of the hero, the savior, or the leader. This concept offers an inner sense of security to people who are afraid of freedom. Some human beings are afraid of freedom."
Interviewer: "Because it is synonymous with anarchy?"
Adonis: "No, because being free is a great burden. It is by no means easy."
Interviewer: "You've got to have a boss..."
Adonis: "When you are free, you have to face reality, the world in its entirety. You have to deal with the world's problems, with everything..."
Interviewer: "With all the issues..."
Adonis: "On the other hand, if we are slaves, we can be content and not have to deal with anything. Just as Allah solves all our problems, the dictator will solve all our problems."
[...]
"I don't understand what is happening in Arab society today. I don't know how to interpret this situation, except by making the following hypothesis: When I look at the Arab world, with all its resources, the capacities of Arab individuals, especially abroad - you will find among them great philosophers, scientists, engineers, and doctors. In other words, the Arab individual is no less smart, no less a genius, than anyone else in the world. He can excel - but only outside his society. I have nothing against the individuals - only against the institutions and the regimes.
"If I look at the Arabs, with all their resources and great capacities, and I compare what they have achieved over the past century with what others have achieved in that period, I would have to say that we Arabs are in a phase of extinction, in the sense that we have no creative presence in the world."
Interviewer: "Are we on the brink of extinction, or are we already extinct?"
Adonis: "We have become extinct. We have the quantity. We have the masses of people, but a people becomes extinct when it no longer has a creative capacity, and the capacity to change its world."
[...]
"The great Sumerians became extinct, the great Greeks became extinct, and the Pharaohs became extinct. The clearest sign of this extinction is when we intellectuals continue to think in the context of this extinction."
Interviewer: "That is very dangerous."
Adonis: "That is our real intellectual crisis. We are facing a new world with ideas that no longer exist, and in a context that is obsolete. We must sever ourselves completely from that context, on all levels, and think of a new Arab identity, a new culture, and a new Arab society."
[...]
"Imagine that Arab societies had no Western influence. What would be left? The Muslims must..."
Interviewer: "What would be left?"
Adonis: "Nothing. Nothing would be left except for the mosque, the church, and commerce, of course."
[...]
"The Muslims today - forgive me for saying this - with their accepted interpretation [of the religious text], are the first to destroy Islam, whereas those who criticize the Muslims - the non-believers, the infidels, as they call them - are the ones who perceive in Islam the vitality that could adapt it to life. These infidels serve Islam better than the believers."
Adonis: "Words and opinions are treated as a crime. This is inconceivable."
Interviewer: "You can be arrested for writing an article."
Adonis: "That's one example."
[...]
"In the Koran itself, it says that Allah listened to his first enemy, Satan, and Satan refused to obey him. I believe that Allah was capable of wiping out Satan, yet He listened to Satan's refusal to obey Him.
"At the very least, we demand that Muslims today listen to people with different opinions."
[...]
Interviewer: "How do you view the plan for democracy, the 'Greater Middle East' plan?"
Adonis: "First of all, I oppose any external intervention in Arab affairs. If the Arabs are so inept that they cannot be democratic by themselves, they can never be democratic through the intervention of others.
"If we want to be democratic, we must be so by ourselves. But the preconditions for democracy do not exist in Arab society, and cannot exist unless religion is reexamined in a new and accurate way, and unless religion becomes a personal and spiritual experience, which must be respected.
"On the other hand, all issues pertaining to civil and human affairs must be left up to the law and to the people themselves."
Interviewer: "Mr. Adonis, how do you view the democracy in Palestine, which brought Hamas to power?"
Adonis: "I support it, but I oppose the establishment of any state on the basis of religion, even if it's done by Hamas."
Interviewer: "Even if it liberates Palestine?"
Adonis: "Yes, because in such a case, it would be my duty to fight this religious state."
[...]
Interviewer: "What are the reasons for growing glorification of dictatorships - sometimes in the name of pan-Arabism, and other times in the name of rejecting foreigners? The glorification comes even from the elites, as can be seen, for example, in the Saddam Hussein trial, and in all the people who support him."
Adonis: "This phenomenon is very dangerous, and I believe it has to do with the concept of 'oneness,' which is reflected - in practical or political terms - in the concept of the hero, the savior, or the leader. This concept offers an inner sense of security to people who are afraid of freedom. Some human beings are afraid of freedom."
Interviewer: "Because it is synonymous with anarchy?"
Adonis: "No, because being free is a great burden. It is by no means easy."
Interviewer: "You've got to have a boss..."
Adonis: "When you are free, you have to face reality, the world in its entirety. You have to deal with the world's problems, with everything..."
Interviewer: "With all the issues..."
Adonis: "On the other hand, if we are slaves, we can be content and not have to deal with anything. Just as Allah solves all our problems, the dictator will solve all our problems."
[...]
"I don't understand what is happening in Arab society today. I don't know how to interpret this situation, except by making the following hypothesis: When I look at the Arab world, with all its resources, the capacities of Arab individuals, especially abroad - you will find among them great philosophers, scientists, engineers, and doctors. In other words, the Arab individual is no less smart, no less a genius, than anyone else in the world. He can excel - but only outside his society. I have nothing against the individuals - only against the institutions and the regimes.
"If I look at the Arabs, with all their resources and great capacities, and I compare what they have achieved over the past century with what others have achieved in that period, I would have to say that we Arabs are in a phase of extinction, in the sense that we have no creative presence in the world."
Interviewer: "Are we on the brink of extinction, or are we already extinct?"
Adonis: "We have become extinct. We have the quantity. We have the masses of people, but a people becomes extinct when it no longer has a creative capacity, and the capacity to change its world."
[...]
"The great Sumerians became extinct, the great Greeks became extinct, and the Pharaohs became extinct. The clearest sign of this extinction is when we intellectuals continue to think in the context of this extinction."
Interviewer: "That is very dangerous."
Adonis: "That is our real intellectual crisis. We are facing a new world with ideas that no longer exist, and in a context that is obsolete. We must sever ourselves completely from that context, on all levels, and think of a new Arab identity, a new culture, and a new Arab society."
[...]
"Imagine that Arab societies had no Western influence. What would be left? The Muslims must..."
Interviewer: "What would be left?"
Adonis: "Nothing. Nothing would be left except for the mosque, the church, and commerce, of course."
[...]
"The Muslims today - forgive me for saying this - with their accepted interpretation [of the religious text], are the first to destroy Islam, whereas those who criticize the Muslims - the non-believers, the infidels, as they call them - are the ones who perceive in Islam the vitality that could adapt it to life. These infidels serve Islam better than the believers."
Taha Hussein said it more than half a century ago & whats the result?
Another writer did & he was called a zionist agent. Nothing changes, words words & more words.
(Comment this)
Adonis: "I support it, but I oppose the establishment of any state on the basis of religion, even if it's done by Hamas.">>
Is it me or is Adonis not making any sense? Adonis claims to support democracy, yet if this democracy brought someone to power he doesn't agree with, he will fight him? What kind of democarcy is this then? If through democracy votes were given to someone who wants to establish a relgious state, then by definition, through democracy, through the will of the people, the people themselves want this religious state. Are you going to forbid them from having a democracy until you convince them that having a religious state is wrong? In other words, you're allowed to vote, but your not allowed to vote for those I disagree with? Or are you going to allow them to vote for whom ever they want (because hey, that's democracy), but after the people vote for the Islamists, you fight them, overthrow them, ban them and then start another elections. Maybe like what happened in Algeria when the Islamic Salvation Front won 55% of the votes of the population?
<<"If I look at the Arabs, with all their resources and great capacities, and I compare what they have achieved over the past century with what others have achieved in that period, I would have to say that we Arabs are in a phase of extinction, in the sense that we have no creative presence in the world.">>
Every era has a nation that excel in it. You can't expect one nation to be great throughout the whole life of this Earth. The Arabs were great in the past, but no longer today. If we look at what is the difference between then and now, I can only see one thing. We used to live under a completely different system than we do now. And this is an extremely shallow way of looking at it, because I'm not even going through why one system is better than another, I am just pointing out mere obvious facts that the only period in history that the Arabs were great was when they lived under the Islamic system. However, Mr. Adonis thinks that the only reason the Arabs are in the state they are in is because the passage of time changes things. In other words, because we have better technology, criminal law changes. Because we have better technology, state laws change. Makes sense? Not to me.
What Adonis means by Modernisation is obviously Westernisation. He wants to adobt the western system, the wester civil law, the western criminal law, the western degree of human rights. Western interpretation of human rights? The British government is proposing to amend human rights so that it agrees with it's new anti-terror bill. These are the values Adonis is preaching. Does human rights change with time as well? No. The only change that occurs is change that governments make so that their aims could be reached and their methods could be accepted. it reminds me of George Orwell's Animal Farm. When laws change to agree with the governments. This is what Adonis is preaching. (Comment this)
Now I don't want to over simplify things, but it is inevitable that Arab society and culture change. It is our opportunity and duty to make a concious decision to embrace the change and influence it ourselves, we have to own it and own up to it. Our active participation in changing our society will insure that the values that were passed on to us from our parents make up the fabric onto which we chart our direction for change.
By not emracing change to allow us to influence it from within, we open the door to external pressures forcing the change on us. In this case, the fabric that will be used to chart the change for Arab soceity , is not compatible with our core.
Sadly, Arab society today is suffering from the excessive friction of change brought upon us by foreigners becasue we would not change ourselves. That is why we live in a sea of contradictions, shuffled priorities and devisive leadership. (Comment this)
Can you give me at least one example of this change that we should embrace?
The reason why the tribes and cultures you mentioned were destroyed (by the way, all of those you mentioned were destroyed by European powers) was because they lacked the gun powder. They didn't have the advanced butchering technology the Europeans had. So as far as I can tell, the only change you are refering to is a change in technology and science. If this is so, then we don't have any problem. Because never was Islam against technology and science. heck, if it wasn't for the Islamic state, not even the Greek philosophy would have survived. Islam is bright, Islam is progressive and intellectual. The only reason that today we can only see in Islam darkness and backwardness is, and I say it again and again and again, the absence of the Islamic state to unite the Muslims and allow the people to live under its shade. Compare the Muslims before and after the Caliphate and you will see where the problem comes from. (Comment this)
there was never this islamic state.you advocate a theocratic dictatorship which be a hundred times worse than current dictatorships. Muslims did suffer under the caliphate rule, especialy during abu bakr, Othman & ali where you had civil wars between muslims, 3 of he close companions got killed & you want us to go back to that age?
The caliphate you talk about wasnt religious, you cant obviously keep repeating the same old stuff day in day out unless your a brainwashed robot, especially when i refuted all your claims before without you saying one single thing that had sense or historical proof & yet you still repeat it. (Comment this)
From my very first day on this board, and I wish Karim would confirm this fact, I replied to an email Karim sent to me telling him that the Islamic Liberation Party is "a political group and not a priestly one. Nor is it an academic, educational or a charity group." And I emphasised to him that I am not willing to teach people their deen, and Kareem agreed to this. Subhan Allah, and then you came along. You're a person that denies the sunnah, insulted the sahaba, called people who the prophet (pbuh) himself told them will go to heaven, and swore at scholars of all ages who lived their lives learning and teaching about Islam, including Bukhari and Muslim.
With this very short introduction of who you are, I will leave it to my brothers and sister who are reading this to decide if your opinion has any value in the deen of ahlul Sunnah.
Sticking to the party's quoted policy above, I will not go on with any discussion with you. I have absolutly no interest in what you believe in for as far as I'm concerned, you are not a part of the people we are trying to revive.
For those who wish to read about those disucssion I had with Alienkein, please refer to these two topics and judge for yourself if I replied to what Alienkain had to say:
A Letter on Islamism
More on Islamism and some on Hizb ut Tahrir al Islami (Islamic Liberation Party)
Allah yahdee al jamee3 wa yorji3 al khilafah, khilafaton rashida 3ala minhaajil nubuwa.
Hudhaifah (raa) has said that the Prophet (saws) said "The Prophecy will remain amongst you as long as Allah wills, then when Allah will He will take it away. Then it will be Khilafah Rashidah for as long as Allah wishes. Then when He wishes He will take it away. Then there will be biting leadership for as long as Allah wills. Then when Allah wills He will take it away. And then there will be tyrannical rule for as long as Allah wills. Then when He wills He will take it away. Then there will be a Khilafah on the method of the Prophet. And then the Prophet (saws) remained silent."
(Comment this)
like always, you twist facts. You are really ignorant & obviously cannot fathom anything but for the sake of refuting you for the umpteenth time, here goes
1- the sunnah has many definitions, i deny your definition as you try to incoporate doubtful sunnah to legislate from it.
2- I never insulted the companions unless you mean by what i wrote regarding the companions fighting eachother, & they insulted eachother, they killed & hurt eachother...these are not insults, these are facts in trusted Islamic historical books. If you have a problem with it, then you have a problem with history & should vent your anger at Tabari, Ibn Katheer & Ibn Al Atheer & many others.
3-Really? the Prophet called the caliphate after him by " al khilafa el rasheda"? Facts say that after the Prophets death, muslims didnt know what to call Abu Bakr & then word khalifa came up, the succesor, & he refused Gods successor as it implied he was Gods shadow on earth which he denied & asked to be called successor of mohamed. Then came omar whom muslims started to call, succesors succesor & Omar didnt like it as the title was begining to get long till someone advised him by Prince of believers, or literally Commander of Believers.
You never ever say anything worthy abdul rahman, you trult are blind to the straight path, you advocate politics & hungry for power & you claim its God's will & lie about the prophet & have the audacity to claim a moral high ground,the prophet never spoke of any khilafa in his life time otherwise the muslims wouldnt have met at Thaqeeft beni Sa'da to elect a leader from the khazrag. These stories were made up as histopry never mentions Omar neither Abu Bakr saying anything of these false stories to the muslims in their attempt of electing abu Bakr.
you know what you sound like, those mentioned in Verse 16 of Mohamed surah :"...They are those whose hearts have been sealed by God, and they follow their own lust.".
(Comment this)
I wont reply to this because your a self proclaimed Quranee. You specifically claimed that the Sunnah should not be followed, is biased, and insulted those men who lived their lives collecting it. I will quote one of the many times you denyed the sunnah of the prophet:
"there is only one source for Islamic law & that is the QURAN, the rest you mentioned are not divine but tainted & really are a nuiscance."
<<2- I never insulted the companions unless you mean by what i wrote regarding the companions fighting eachother, & they insulted eachother, they killed & hurt eachother...these are not insults, these are facts in trusted Islamic historical books. If you have a problem with it, then you have a problem with history & should vent your anger at Tabari, Ibn Katheer & Ibn Al Atheer & many others.>>
>>You called Abu Hurayra a theif and a lier. I replied to your allegation and said that Omar realised his mistake and offered the job back to Abu Hurayra in bahrain. You never replied to my answer and kept on insulting Abu Hurayra. Shows that you never really read any sources that speak of the story, because if you did you will know how it ends.
>>You insulted Omar and said he drank alcohol and sited al Mawti2. I replied to that and said that you don't even have the book. In al Mawti2, Omar drank a drink made of dates with no alcohol and another drink of milk. You obviously don't have the book and just getting your lies from some other fool like yourself.
>>You claimed that Abu Baker took rule by force against the will of the Muslims. I refuted that by saying that not a single source says that. I went as far as to quote how the discussion went between Abu Baker and the meeting and how calm and respectful Abu Baker was by praising the Ansar in ever sentence he said.
You put false allegations on some of the greatest Muslims and refused to believe the clear refutation. You're a lier who never read a single book on Islam, except probably materials from Salman Rushdie and his likes.
<<3-Really? the Prophet called the caliphate after him by " al khilafa el rasheda"? Facts say that after the Prophets death, muslims didnt know what to call Abu Bakr & then word khalifa came up, the succesor, & he refused Gods successor as it implied he was Gods shadow on earth which he denied & asked to be called successor of mohamed. Then came omar whom muslims started to call, succesors succesor & Omar didnt like it as the title was begining to get long till someone advised him by Prince of believers, or literally Commander of Believers.>>
Listen ignorant, khaleefah is Arabic for successor. Even when the people called him the 'successor of the prophet in Arabic, that is still khaleefah.
As far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over. Any discussion with you is over. The prophet (pbuh) told us not to enter into long meaningless discussions, neither is it my job to teach you basics of Islam. As far as I see it, you have completely left the fold of Islam. Difference of opinion on different issues is acceptable, but you went way off by denying the sunnah (like the Quranieen), insulting the sahaba (like the Shia) and then refuse to be corrected when clear refutation is provided. You have not a single grain of the Islam of ahlul sunnah, so I'm really not interested with what you think. (Comment this)
i do pity you....you never could say anything worthy of any proper discussion, you only repeat what you were brainwashed to say so you dont have a mind of your own which is the reason for pitying your likes.
You are not interested because you dont know how to debate or reply, because youre a coward & a hypocrite who talks about God yet dont want to know anything proper of what he said, because you are a lair who lies about God & the prophet all the time for his own personal goals, because you couldnt refute a single thing i said, you are pathetic, you know that dont you, next time you say anything about religion i will simply overwhelm you again. (Comment this)
It is in the chapter " All on Madina "
of Malek from yehya bin saad from abdulrahman bin qasem that aslam omar's servant told him he visited abdulah bin ayyash the makhzumi & saw wine(Nabeez) with him while on route to Mecca so aslam told him: That is the drink omar likes, so abdula bin ayyasha carried a huge cup over to Omar & placed it in his hand & omar neared it to his mouth & then looked up & said: that is good drink & drank from it & handed it to a man on his right & called abdulah saying to him: Are you who said that Mecca is better than Madina? & so abdulah replied: its God's sanctuary & his peace & his house is in it.So omar said: I dont debate Gods house or his sanctuary a thing & then left.
I wont go about the other rubbish you said like abu bakr taking it by force which i didnt say but you have nothing at all to reply with so your only chance is to make up words i didnt say to give yourself some breating space, abdul rahman, i have references for every little detail i said, not one or 2 but more references in books that you cant read even, seeing as you cant read or write arabic, so please, dont add melodramatic elements to my words & do your best not to talk rubbish again. (Comment this)
Well said. I agree whole-heartedly, and have come to these conclusions after extensive soul searching.
Abdul-rahman I hope you can see through the brain washing and the lies we were told. (Comment this)
Not to long ago my people enjoyed a good life. Life was not with out its conflict with others but life was good. I have grown up with the history of my people being decimated, raped and now looked at as a novelty. At one point we were as many as Fifty million, now we are less than two million.
We are still proud and loving as a people.
I know not my Muslim brothers, what I see of them tells me that they hate me for living in a land that they see as the devil. I know no Muslims.
Why would they hate me, a Native American who dose not hate? (Comment this)
(Comment this)
If only you could feel the same pain when Muslims abuse Muslims, for the biggest abusers of Muslims are their co-religionists. WHere was all the Muslim outrage when Saddam was filling his mass graves? How about when the Syrian government slaughtered all those people in Hama? Why is there so much silence about Darfur, yet so much explosive anger when the Danes insulted your holy man?
Why isn't there any objection when Muslims kill other Muslims, but so much when non-Muslims are the perpetrators? (Comment this)
Now, if your son mouthed off to you and you smacked him, or if you got into a fight with your cousin our friend, it is wrong and should not be over looked. But, if an outsider, who has no relation to you or your family, came and insulted anyone close to you, or harmed them in any way it is your duty to unify against the outside enemy and to put your differances aside, if only momentarily.
a perfect example is the relationship between hamas and hezbullah. one is sunni and the other is shi'ite. even though the shi'ite faction is awash with rituals and false beliefs,unlike the sunni muslims who make it their goal to try and follow islam according to the SUNNAH of the prophet (sas) (hence the name sunni) they still have a common threat to their saftey and well being so they fight together. at this point saying "la illaha il allah" is enough. and regardless of their religious beliefs, those who fight bravely for those with out a voice and with out a protector should be celebrated.
can you honestly say that we should forget about the intrusion of the nwo into our homelands because we also fight amongst ourselves? its not any of your business anyway.
in the same way you could say that the native americans had tribal disputes and went to war, so they have no right to blame (at that time) easterners for all of their misfortune, only some of it. also it was their fault for resisting their inevitable domination.
is this logical? (Comment this)
the only true source of information is the Quaran and only a muslim can read it. so stop trying to make up false accusations about muslim people youll only emmbaress yourself (Comment this)
You said “why is there lots of objection to when a muslim kills or hurts a non muslim but not when a non muslim kills or hurts a muslim? i dont get it/”
Eh?? Non-Muslims went to Kosovo and Bosnia to save Muslims from non-Muslims. How many Muslims went to help their co-religionists? None. How many Muslims are trying to stop what’s going on in Darfur? None. All the outrage is coming from the Western countries.
Atta atta ur-rahman;
You said “that we should forget about the intrusion of the nwo into our homelands because we also fight amongst ourselves? its not any of your business anyway.”
Some 25,000 Iraqis died in the US invasion. Half a million died under Saddams rule. Which body count do you find more offensive, Atta?
You put up a lot of excuses for when Muslims kill Muslims. Why is that? Can Muslims not help themselves from acting like beasts, but Westerners should be able to?
Why the double standard? Don’t you think that all atrocities should be condemned, starting with those in your own family, since they happen to be the worse ones?
(Comment this)
It is wrong to say that the quran is only for muslims to read. It was sent to all of mankind as a guide and a mercy from allah. Let not your anger and indignation force you to forget the gentleness and inclusiveness of islam. Muhammad (sas) was not sent to the lost children of arabia, our the "lost sheep" But was sent to all human beings as a sencere advisor and a great mercy and favor from the one and only god Allah.
STRANGE ATTRACTOR
First i want to begin by saying that you are right and have a good point. I will not argue for the sole purpose of being right.
Civilian deaths are wrong in any circumstance. But i believe that what i said is that we should be unified and strong in the face of the invader, i did not give any excuses for muslim on muslim crime.
But, I asked a question a few weeks or a month ago that has been asked by many others before me and i believe is a huge one.
When and why did the "lunatic/crazy arab terrorist" epidemic begin? Did you ever even hear of a muslim terrorist before WWII? (actually, even before the 1980's) WWII marked the birth, or the coming out party of the New World Order movement. And since that time the western facists (capitalists) have had to develop an enemy, or at least seek one out in order to expand their influence and to force their own people to feel dependent on the government for protection.
After the fall of the soviet union, the Arabs (and muslims of all races) were next in line. They had land(palestine) natural resources($$oil$$) and.... most importantly....They were the guardians of the three major mono-theistic religions. It is hard to control people (and get rich off of them) when they give their control to god.
And how can these super nations provide a set of laws and guidelines to a world that already has rules and guidelines given to us by god?
If the middle east is completely secularized and the culture is let loose to be animalistic and unrefined like it is in america, then in 100 years religion will no longer have any depth or meaning.
You can believe it or not, but the middle east anchors all three religions. And, you can deny it all you want to but all of the messangers of god INCLUDING moses, jesus, abraham, etc. would be disgusted by the lifestyle in the west and i doubt if they would permit one person over there into heaven.
muslim "terrorists" get it.
they are fighting for something bigger than themselves.
every generation has carefully passed the word of God (however they believe it) on to the next, and no generation wants to be the one that dropped the ball. infact we have this region to thank for our religions in the first place.
brutality against fellow muslims just shows the dark, ugly side of our HUMAN NATURE.
But resistance to an outside enemy, and the protection of precious knowledge as well as innocent and defensless people through extreem sacrifice shows the beautiful and uplifting side of our HUMAN NATURE.
As for the number of deaths in the Iraqi war as compared to Saddams Regime, I will ask you one thing. How much longer did Saddam rule Iraq than the length of this war? If this war is carried out as long as Saddams Regime was in power than im sure that the numbers would tip a little differently (where did you get your figures anyway? Assosiated Press? you can trust them all you want, but i believe that their numbers are really damage control.)
And you said
"Why the double standard? Don’t you think that all atrocities should be condemned, starting with those in your own family, since they happen to be the worse ones?"
you suggested our own double standard because you said that muslim atrocities are "the worst ones" in your eyes.
I don't know, but i think mass carpet bombings and invasions are a lot more terrifying than an exploding bus or even exicutions. A suicide bombing is on a much smaller scale, and is more for shock value and attention to the issue than death tolls. And exicutions (saddam) are indeed terrifying, and there isn't much that i will say to defend that monster, but his atrocities were not as horrifying and were DIFFERENT from the rain of bombs and destruction brought by the "liberators"
Imagine bombs raining down, and you don't know where the next one will land. Where would you run? Where could you hide? What should you do? how could you possible save your children? What did you do to deserve this?
THAT IS TERROR.
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You said “(actually, even before the 1980's) WWII marked the birth, or the coming out party of the New World Order movement.”
Ah yes, the New World Order. The space aliens that landed in my yard last month told me all about it. They spoke to me telepathically, but I wasn’t really paying attention, as I thought I saw Elvis walking down the street.
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You said “If the middle east is completely secularized and the culture is let loose to be animalistic and unrefined like it is in america, then in 100 years religion will no longer have any depth or meaning”
If the culture of America was as bad as you say, America would not be getting the millions of immigrants that it does. They would be going someplace more refined, like Somalia. The rest of the world would not be copying America’s culture to the extent it does.
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You said “moses, jesus, abraham, etc. would be disgusted by the lifestyle in the west and i doubt if they would permit one person over there into heaven”
Did Moses, Jesus, and Abraham tell you that personally? Atta, the West went through great traumas because people claimed to know the mind of God. Like you, they villified the “other guy” and believed God would never let him into heaven. That led them to do terrible things to each other. When you adopt this attitude, you are on your way to repeating our mistakes. Some of your extremists already have. Are you sure you want to be in their camp?
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You said “you suggested our own double standard because you said that muslim atrocities are "the worst ones" in your eyes.I don't know, but i think mass carpet bombings and invasions are a lot more terrifying than an exploding bus or even exicutions.”
Bus bombs and executions are the least of your mischief. Here’s some recent history.
Algerian civil war – about 500,000 dead.
Lebanese Civil war: 100,000 dead, about a million people displaced.
Darfur: 200,000 dead in organized massacres directed by the government. Millions displaced.
Syria: 20,000 – 40,000 civilians slaughtered by the Syrian government in Hama
Saddam Hussain: Over a million people dead between domestic slaughters and wars with Iran and Kuwait. Now the Iraqis have turned on each other.
So much for the unity of the Ummah that you defend so energetically.
You should deal with the California redwood in your own eye before complaining about the splinter in the eye of the outsider.
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You said “his atrocities were not as horrifying and were DIFFERENT from the rain of bombs and destruction brought by the "liberators"
I agree they were different. The “liberators” never put people into wood chippers or vats of acid. Nor did they shove thousands of Shiites into mass graves. Nor did they use poison gas on any Kurdish town. The misbehavior at Abu Graib was punished by the liberators themselves. Have you noticed that no one in Iraq wants Saddam back in power? Don’t you remember the Iraqis cheering in the streets when the Americans rolled into Baghdad? Or are you going to say they were all Hollywood actors?
As for the rain of bombs and destruction, the native Iraqis have outdone the “liberators” splendidly, don’t you think? How many of their own people do they kill every day? 50? 60? It’s not even news anymore.
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