Meet the Commenters
I have got to say (with a bit of a self pat on the back here) that there have been some great dialogues going on here. What makes them so great, in my opinion, is the extremities in the polarization of opinion represented; done so, by and large, with meticulous calculation, support, professionalism, levelness of thought, and very little bullshit (relative to politics of course) on behalf of the people that comment here.
I would like to bring particular attention to a couple of readers/commenters/regulars as an illustration of what I am talking about.
These two guys are at fairly solid ends of the spectrum; at least in the context of the kinds of discussions carried out here. I read both of them with an approach that ranges from extreme interest to fatigue. Depending on how my day is going I will open up their newest comment with an excitement that cable internet cant cope with to “damn it not this guy again.”
It’s obvious that one is a Jew and one a Muslim; hardcore at that.
So here it is; two commenters profiled:
Abd ul-Rahman Hilmi:
“I cannot disclose any personal information as I worry for my safety when considering what I say. Abd ul-Rahman is not even my real name. I do apologize for this if it causes any inconvenience. I can tell you that I am a male Arab and part of the Islamic Liberation Party. My views are the views of Hizb ut-Tahrir al Islami, you can scan through one of our sites to get a more in depth understanding."
Previously profiled here.
Andrew Brehm:
“I have few things to hide. :-)
I am 28 years old, work as a system engineer for a multi-national software company (the name of which I fear I should not make public as I am a consultant and not an employee), was born and grew up in West-Berlin, and live in Dublin, Ireland. My non-spam-trap email address is ajbrehm @ gmail.com. My home page is at http://www.netneurotic.net and on http://www.netneurotic.net/me/ you will find a picture (it's five years or so old but it's me all right). I have a blog at http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com.
Apart from computers and the Internet I am interested in linguistics, evolutionary biology, religion, politics, old/classic movies, humor, British television shows, French comic books, and food.
I attend shul (synagogue) services every Friday (very strictly so) and sometimes Saturday mornings as well. And I am well known as a good customer in the local Subway's, the Chinese restaurant across the road, and several Arab fast food places! :-) Think somebody who starts eating as soon as left alone and who complains a lot about minor things when asked how his day went, and you have me in a nut shell. And the shell fits.”
We also have our eye on a couple of other regulars; Alien Kain, Strange Attractor, a few Danes we picked up since the cartoon fiasco, and the up and coming Raccoon (shoot me out some emails with a little personal info). You people have taught me so much while almost continuously annoying the hell out of me, so to both of you and the rest of you; hats off and thank you for making this thing readable.
-Karim Elsahy
I followed the Andijan massacres very closely because of a great interest in the area as well as common language and culture. I also had many friends in the area because of several years working in the area as a volunteer agriculturalist.
This was the first time I heard of the Hizbi ut Tahrir.
It seems the very evil and corrupt regime of Islam Karimov (former communist leader of the Soviet Stat of Uzbekistan) Tried desperately but unsuccessfully to get the organization lableed terrorist by the international community. For their part they were eventually content with the support of Russia, China, and Kazakstan.
No there was a man who was somehow loosely associated with the organization named Yuldishov. He is now either dead or in a torture cell some where rotting away. His wife fled to Kyrgyzstan, got refuge status and was relocated to another country. Children, are probalbly in the care of friends and relatives.
Are you familiar with him and what the their community group labeled akramia did in Andijan and surrounding village?
It sounds very much like a small scale community enlightenment occured and was therefor threatening to the regime.
There was also a bold and heroic man in Kara-Su whose picture was taken on horseback named perhaps Bactiar or something like that. He and his community seem to have been working toward something similar. He also is in prison somewnere.
Are you familiar with these individuals or the community development plans they followed?
I searched for access to the writings of Yuldashov, but was unable even to find anything in Uzbek.
I stress that Yuldashov apparently never advocated violence of any kind, but his following of a Quaranic model of community development temporarily turned around the greater Andijan economy and did much to reduce poverty.
What happened to trigger the peaceful demonstrations was the arrest of the main business leaders involved, and mixed into it was an armed prison break to set them free.
All this resulted in the massacre of over 700 men, women, and children, peacefully demonstrating in the main square using mostly British supplied arms and military vehicles. Then in the weaks that followed summary execusions of all who were thought to have been eye witnesses and kidnappings and threats to family members to get key individuals out of the refuge camp and into Uzbek prisons for torture.
I am sure you are more familiar, but the details were included for the sake of others who may read the disaster line. (Comment this)
The world's shock because of martyrized mind.
If your heart is open, please, listen for instant -
These gentle wails are from Uzbek land…
Dear A,
Every time I think about Uzbekistan, by Allah I come near to tears. They have so much patience and face so much hardship. How I wish to live with them someday. The beautiful thing is that it is there where I am certain that we will finally achieve victory. In Central Asia. I am an Arab and it is very hard on me to see the Arab world slowly drifting away into the filth of secularism, but the Uzbek brothers are also my family and if not as close, closer to me than the falling Arabs. May Allah grant us victory. The rise of a Caliphate somewhere, anywhere, must trigger a revolt, a form of domino effect, throughout the whole of the ummah of Muhammad alaihil salam.
As for your questions. The demonstrations were not organised by Akramia. They were organised by the Uzbek government and Hizb ut-Tahrir knew that from the very begining. The party knew several of the people who were inciting the Uzbeks to demonstrate and recognised them as agents and ex-agents of the government. We knew most of them and realised that the Uzbek government is trying to stage something. Emidiatly the party issued leaflets ordering the people to remain in their homes and not to fall for such trickery, but only a few listened. The people were overwhelmed by Karimov's tyranny and all of them had relatives who either disapeared or were tortured by Karimov the dog. They were blinded by their anger and couldn't think of how bad it could turn out, a peaceful demonstration to release the people in the Uzbek torture chambers.
On Karimov's part, he succeeded to get alot of people to the streets and using the Russian army blocked the streets and closed in on them before they finally massacared them. He later blamed Hizb ut-Tahrir and Akramia for starting the demonstration and claimed that the demonstrators were calling for the establishment of an Islamic state and the overthrow of his "elected" government.
Karimov the dog also at almost the same time ordered his troops to enter the prisons where Islamic political prisoners were held and to shoot them. He later claimed that Hizb ut-Tahrir carried that slaughter out.
The Akramia is not part of Hizb ut-Tahrir, not even loosley. Their founder used to be a member of the hizb but he left to form his own party which has different ideas from us, although aims to the same final goal.
I never heard of Bactiar before, I'll have to check with other brothers about him before I could get back to you.
There is an article which came on Khilafah magazine which was written by an Uzbek Tahreeri brother which speeks of the massacre. I copied it down in my blog if you wish to read it. (Comment this)
I must admit that I wasn't satisfied with Abdul's answer, and the slow pace of the discussion was driving me nuts.
I must admit that I am hardly an expert on Islam - but after the reading the Koran, I wonder how Islam can coexist with liberalism, human rights and so on and so forth.
Not to mention Raccoon rights, which are not mentioned at ALL in the Koran. Pffft. Discrimination! :)
(Comment this)
Ex:
To justify innocents dieing from attacks by Palestinian groups on Israeli’s the most used quote is “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and the initiator is the aggressor” or something like that.
Another can quote “In the times of holy war, the protection of the enemy’s women, children, elderly, livestock, and vegetation is the responsibility of every Muslim and their destruction murder.” … again a rough translation but you get my point.
There is plenty in every book I don’t like; from uncomfortable to outrage. I tend to have a more holistic outlook on things though and I don’t really bother nor do I have much interest in trying to get that in depth. (Comment this)
I'm sorry about the slow pace of the discussion but I have other things to do. I replied to A's questions today because it's straight forward and short. You're gonna have to be patient, I have other things to do. (Comment this)
No worries, mate :)
Karim -
That is an interesting outlook. But... "Devil is in the details".
Peace out
The Discordian Raccoon (Comment this)
I just realised that the above sounds like a reaction to Abd's secrecy. It is not.
It was several weeks ago when Karim asked me about such information as you see above and my comments started with "I have few things to hide" because he asked in a very polite way.
I have removed my street address and telephone number from my home page though. Call me paranoid, if you must. I do fear certain people. And I respect others. (Comment this)
Walahi I am not understand you ya sheikh. In the very begining I thought you're probably extermely secular that you have nothing left of your deen on you - something like that egyptian monkey. But then I saw your photos praying and I thought la2, the man is still loyal 2u kaman fakhur 3ashan te7ot 2l suar 3al blog. And now you're saying what? Adam wasn't created from clay, instead he evolved from some sort of an ape? mush faahim. iza muslim khod 2li fil Quraan wal sunnah, iza ghair keda lamin bet9ali kunt?
assalamu alaikum wa rahmat Allah (Comment this)
"God is in the details" - Ludwig Maes van der Rohe (probably)
"Devil is the details" - a German proverb
Either way it's correct - get wrong one little detail of the building you're designing but make the rest perfect, and your building will fall anyway.
There's also this little Slavic (I think) folk song/proverb about how a single nail caused a war to be lost. Ever heard it? It's the precursor of Chaos Theory :)
NM it though. Lao Tze was right.
(Comment this)
Well worth the watching. No propaganda, just a sincere former soldier talking about his experiences:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5587990522549547050 (Comment this)
Kind of reminds me of the Jenin "massacre" fabrication, that many still believe to be true. Pfffft.
It proves only that Hitler was right when he said that the bigger the lie the more believable it is.
Peace out.
The Discordian Raccoon.
(Comment this)
Ma'a salâma (Comment this)
esteemed brother hilmi, i always knew i liked you and tried to defend you because you speak the truth from a firm islamic standpoint.
but now i have limitless respect for you after reading about your worthy and righteous goals. i plan to study islam in riyad one day soon inshallah and am in the process of saving money. i have much to learn, but i do have a very strong faith and feel that the furtherment of islam and its pure teachings is the only worthy goal i can have to make my short existence in this life meaningful. and to assure allahs (swt) satisfaction with me and my pleasure and happiness in the here-after. i am interested in learning more about hizb ut tahir and will read all of the rest that is on the web site.
and to karim. i would like to thank you for the comment you made about quoting the quran, and you are right about the methods described fil qura'n al karim. the agressors and enemys of allah (swt) should be confronted and thourghly defeated, but one should avoid injuring women and children and elderly, and livestock and vegitation but it seems that able bodied men who reject the word of allah and pray for islams destruction and those who murder muslimeen with little more remorse than they would have for a squished bug should be delt with in a way fitting with the sunnah of the prophet of allah (sas)
this would be peacefuly educating and resisting......to a point, but after the theft of the belongings of the muhajiroon by the enemys of allah muhammad (sas) was give the right to armed defence and resistance. what is labeled terrorism is a reaction to tainted and vilinous foreign policy from the west in ALL ISLAMIC LANDS. i can't come up with one islamic country in which the west has not done some type of harm to the general "islamic" public. even in asia, most of the kids making soccer balls and dollar store toys in developing islamic countries are, guess what MUSLIMS. as i have said, muslims are getting dogged out all over the world in part because we have all but abbandoned islam to the eshyukh, and mostly because of the evil globalist plot to erradicat monotheistic ideology which is repressented most purely by islam. their goal is to establish a world religion of earth worship or beliefe in your own personal god or something with an anything goes attitude that will severly weaken the people and thus make them easier to manipulate and fool. sadiknee, it is approching swiftly, this kingdom of the shaitaan, enemy of the only true god ALLAH subhana hu wa ta'alla and true islam is the only answer, coupled with an ACTIVE, PHYSICAL RESPONCE to their very physical attacks on innocent believers. may ALLAH defend and protect his humble worshipers all over his creation and grant us victory in our noble struggle. (Comment this)
OK. First of all, this is a bit creepy, unless this is some kind of joke along with the rest of the post above.
But if it isn't... well... please reconsider before you strap on that bomb belt, Atta?
Thank you.
(Comment this)
First, I don't believe you.
Second, if you do tell the truth, be more specific. What did you see? How was it "merciless"? And who was being persecuted? (Comment this)
Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh. I am not sure whether to laugh or cry. (Comment this)
My good brother, learn of the party from party members. Unfortunatly there is alot of lies and slander against our party on the internet, even on Islamic sheikh "let's sleep in the mosque and forget the world" sites. They try to spread lies about the hizb, lies that are so obvious that when you read them you might even laugh. I guess this is the burden people who work for truth have to bear.
Keep this in mind while you do your research, wa Allah yahdi al jamee3.
wassalam (Comment this)
*shudder* (Comment this)
i have seen dead people.
how dare you. i feel like i want to explode with anger. you son of a bitch you don't know me. you fuckin racist. you think that jews are the victoms and arabs are vilans. well we both wear our funeral suits far too often, but who is it that has the upper hand? who is the invader who can stop the violence and recognize their victom as such and accomidate them? in a body for body comparison the PALESTINIANS are the victoms and the PALESTINIANS aren't the ones who packed their bags 60 years ago and moved in to the land with tanks, the PALESTINIANS have always been there. it is the jews who are clearly in the wrong but are rich and powerful enough to wash over their wrong doing with positive propaganda. and as a colony of america (they recieve more foreign aid from the federal government than any other nation, plus military support cocked and ready at a moments notice) they know they are there to stay and the palestinians are human playthings to abuse as they please (as long as nobody sees)
You had better be glad that we are just online because if you ever disrespected me like that in person i would have knocked your fuckin molars out for real. if i say something im not pulling it out of my ass. that is a really touchy subject for me because as i said, the actions of the israeli pigs are sub-human and anyone who has gone to PALESTINE would see for themselves and would already know without questioning me, so i have to ask, have you ever been to PALESTINE? do YOU know what YOU are talking about? should anyone believe YOU? and how do your fuckin people fell that they are entitled to anything? yes the benni israeel were the "chosen people" but that is no compliment from allah. it is an insult. allah sent prophets to your people knowing that they would be corrupt and go astray and granted more favors on them than any other people just to make an example of you to the ummah of the last prophet muhammad salallahu alaihi wa salam. he used to tell his followers, don't be like the benni israeel who were given the most miraculous signs from your lord ever sent to man and still worshiped a golden cow. and were arrogant enough to challenge moses several times and even had the audacity to demand their lord to show himself!!! they even planned to kill their last prophet but allah is the best of planners and the fools did not succeed. if i were a jew i would hang my head in shame and imbarresment of my forefathers who were most favored by allah and then spit in his face so to speak. IKHS ALAIK U ALAIKUM ULADILHARAM. (Comment this)
ALLAHI SALMAK YA AKHUWI HILMI (Comment this)
Atta-Arahman... sorry, the time for being gentle with you is long past.
I was a soldier in the IDF. I have served both in the war in Lebanon and the little self-destructive war your Palestinian friends wrought. Your lopsided, schizophreniac world view is beyond pitiful - apparently it makes you a danger to yourself and others.
So, Allah's little warrior, why not chill out a bit? Smoke a few joints. Have some sex. Maybe punch a bag for a bit and attend some anger management sessions. Read some books - maybe even get an education not initiated by a fellow with a beard and a gun. You'll live a longer and fuller life then - hatered really IS detrimental to one's health. (Comment this)
(atta ur-rahman) (Comment this)
I see. Is your real Abedallah, perchance? (*sniger*)
Look... I think it's called puberty, Allah's little warrior. Don't worry - it passes with time, yes? The spots will go away, the world will seem less hostile, the control issues more manageable...
The problem is, if you don't chill out, you are - sadly - unlikely to survive the aforementioned puberty. I know that you believe that dying for Allah will insure you a cushy place in Heaven... especially if you bring some evil infidels down with you (and we're all evil, are we not?)... but trust me, life is beautiful. Chill out and you'll actually enjoy it.
The Discordian Raccoon - for those who don't know zoology or mythology or coun't figure it out, it means I am a small furry omnivore who just happens to be devoted to the Goddess of Chaos. Shocking isn't it? :)
Just.. chill. Peace = survival.
(Comment this)
the servitude of the self. towards temptations of the flesh, or towards wronging allahs humble
worshipers. how can you justify this new lifestyle unless you do not believe in god or do not believe that he created all things and to him all things shall return? i admit that i am still limited in knowledge, but if anything, a have my priorities in order and intend on being a spiritual force so that others may remember their lord and his great promise to his faithful servents. and dying in allahs cause is described in his holy word as the dearest act to him, so why on earth would you mock that? as for me personally, i feel that i could be worth more to allah if i gather knowledge and work in his path to unite the believers and help return them to his way. and why insist on calling me allahs little warrior? if only you knew how little we all are in the eyes of our creator. and for your information, puberty has had its effects long ago and i am now a man, fully responsible for my words and actions fi uddam allah.
and you should't joke about being devoted to the goddest of chaos because there is none and you are commiting shirk (making partners with god) which is THE worst sin imaginable. (Comment this)
Let us start with the end.
Yes, I am Mushrikun. I am a follower of Eris, the Lady of Discord, the Mistress of Chaos. Sin? My beliefs are sin? The fact that me and Eris are on good terms bothers you?
And I would - and do! - mock Allah and Islam when it deserves to be mocked. Same goes for anything else, including Eris herself. And by the way, your Sharia doesn't apply to me - I am a Raccoon, not a monkey.
Better mock than kill, Abed-Allah. Better laugh than die.
I know you disagree. And from thence flow my sadness and derision.
(Comment this)
I don't doubt that. That's WHY I don't believe that Jews are the aggressors and that you are the victim.
You see, _I_ would not attempt to it anybody just because I disagree with or feel offended by what they say.
And that more or less summarises the middle eastern conflict and explains very well why there will not be peace in our time.
Unless you people change.
A lot. (Comment this)
The difference between "resistance" and "pre-emptive terror" is words.
You support what the Qur'an forbids against the people who settle in the land the Qur'an says they must settle.
And you call that land by its pagan name.
You are right. I would not have said what I said if I had met you in person. I am afraid of people like you. I know that people like you have little regard for G-d's law and WOULD actually attack me.
And it would be "resistance", wouldn't it? (Comment this)
The Quran was simply was reciting the story of Moses. The land was given to him and the people he lead, this is historically accepted. What is also historically accepted is that the Jews lost the land and were also expelled from it for several centuries. What is also historic fact that today's Jews are Khazar Jews who are certainly not the ancestors of the Jews who were lead by Moses, but are Jews from Western Asia and Eastern Europe.
The Quran also says:
2:191 - And slay them wherever ye find them, AND DRIVE THEM OUT OF THE PLACES WHENCE THEY DROVE YOU OUT, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
2:192 - But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
2:193 - And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
2:194 - The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).
The first verse should suffice to prove my point from the Quran that we have all the right to throw out those who threw us out, but I thought I'd add the following three verses because it's a norm for non-Muslims to take the first three words off the verse and shout out how evil Islam is. (Comment this)
And that is NOT historic fact. In fact gene studies show that it is not true. You made it up or fell for somebody who made it up. It is also irrelevant, as G-d's law says that other people can join the Jewish people and become Jews. The blood line doesn't matter, only G-d's law does.
The Qur'an does recite Moses, that is true. But the Qur'an is also clear about Moses telling the TRUTH at that point and that the Jews will be exiled twice and return.
"And slay them wherever ye find them, AND DRIVE THEM OUT OF THE PLACES WHENCE THEY DROVE YOU OUT"
I'm afraid that doesn't refer to Palestine. It seems unlikely to me that G-d would first tell the Jews to settle in the land (and not turn back) and then tell others to kill the Jews in that land.
You are clearly misreading the Qur'an there. But let's assume it does apply.
(You didn't even know that the Qur'an did say that the land was Jewish land, when I first mentioned it. I didn't forget that.)
There is the issue of timing. Arabs were not driven out before the first attack, which means that
a) Muslims did not attack Jews in the legal way described in your quote but simply attacked them.
b) The Jews drove out, if they did, people who violated G-d's law by supporting an illegal, according to the Qur'an, attack.
There might be many good arguments for why attacking Israel was justified, but the excuse that the Qur'an says that one must kill those who drove out Muslims doesn't hold here, as the driving out happened DURING and AFTER the attack, not before.
The facts are that the Qur'an says that the land is Jewish land, that the Jews would be in exile twice, and the Jews did not drive out anybody BEFORE the first Arab attack.
That doesn't mean that Israel is right and the Arabs are wrong, but it does mean that the Qur'an supports that particular position.
If the Arabs would succeed in driving the Jews into exile a third time, the Arabs would have succeeded in disproving the Qur'an. Nice work!
Also, can you refer to the land using the original names rather than the pagan term? If your argument about who owns Israel and Judaea is valid, you will certainly not require the pagan name for the land. (Comment this)
02:54-57
and when moses said to his people 'o my people! surely you have wronged yourselves by worshiping the calf, so repent to your creator and slay the evildoers among you, this will be better for you with your creator,' and he will pardon you indeed he is the most relenting, the most merciful, and when you said 'o moses! we will not believe in you untill we see god openly! so the thunderbolt struck you while you were looking on. then we revived you after your death, that you may be grateful. and we shaded you with the clouds, and sent down to you manna and quails: 'eat of the good things we have provided for you.' they have not wronged us but they only wronged themselves.
then allah said afterward in the same surah:
02:60-61
and moses prayed for water for his people, so we said: 'strike the rock with your staff' whereupon twelve springs gushed forth,each tribe knew its own spring.' eat and drink of allahs sustinance, and do not act wickedly, CORRUPTING THE EARTH,' and when you say: 'o moses! we cannot bear one kind of food, so pray to your lord for us to produce of that which the earth grows its herbs, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions.'he said 'will you exchange the better for the worse? go down to any town and you shall find what you demand.' and disgrace and humiliation were stamped upon them, and they drew on themselves the wrath of the lord. that is because they went on rejecting the signs of their lord and unjustly slaying prophets. this is because they rebelled and went on transgressing.
now you want to tell me with a straight face that allah intends to grant favors or rights to the children of israel? who have BECOME the nazis they hate.
and as for jerusalem allah has made it AL-HARAM AL-SHAREEF and it is an ISLAMIC holy land. it is the site where rasulallah visited the heavens. and brought down to us the knowledge of allah and our manner of prayer from allah.
"on this day i have perfected islam for you and made it your religion, and no other faith will be accepted after islam"
therefore islam outranks judaism in the eyes of our creator and anything that came before islam is only to be used for our knowledge and understanding, but anything after islam is final. if muhammad (sas) assended to heaven through jerusalem and declared it a holy land, then that is THE END OF THE DISCUSSION. (Comment this)
You said “allah and his last religion which he has perfected for mankind, and will not accept any other on the day of judgement. muhammad was the only prophet sent to all of mankind”
While I find your oracles interesting, keep in mind that 5 billion people disagree with you. If you want to bring Allah into the discussion, please note that Allah himself caused the rest of us to be born into non-Islamic religions which he knew we would then follow. Therefore, it’s nonsense that he would find other religions unacceptable.
-------
You said “and as for jerusalem allah has made it AL-HARAM AL-SHAREEF and it is an ISLAMIC holy land.”
Anyone can say their god gave them some piece of land. It means nothing in a court of law. If Allah wanted you to have that city so bad, he’d give it to you, being the almighty that he is. You might want to consider that he’s more concerned with your spiritual development than about you getting ownership of an earthly slab of property.
(Comment this)
You got your facts wrong again. Research "Zionism" and "Palestina 1850 - 1948", using reliable sources, please. I feel that it might be an enlightening experience.
Yours truly,
The Discordian Raccoon.
(Comment this)
I wish this were true in 1948
(Comment this)
Peace out.
The Discordian Raccoon (Comment this)
...the holocoust did happen, but why?
and that U.N. charter that is so heavily touted as the first "peace" offering and that it was the arabs that rejected the terms and are to blame for the conflict, thats kind of like telling the indians that they are to blame for their massicre and degridation because they put up a struggle.
i have heard enough about the history as told by the zionists. to swear that everything we know from western history is "honest to god" or the "gospel ;) " truth is to be ignorant. it is riddled with propagana, and is itself, infact a tool of propaganda. to hear both sides is to find the truth.
i realize that the truth lay somewhere in the middle, but to deny the muslims their voice, and to claim that the opinion of the inhabitants is completly invalid or false is to buy the propaganda in full. read between the lines and you shall find their true intentions.
in contrast, you can read the lines of al qur'an al kareem anyway you want to, the pure truth shines through the same.
12:111
There is, indeed, in their stories lessons for people endowed with understanding. It is not any invented tale, but a confirmation of what came before it, and a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a mercy to the people who believe.
this may help some of you out there.
20:123-126
he said: 'Get down from here all of you, you are an enemy to each other. Whenever there shall come to you Guidance from Me, then whoever followed My Guidance, shall not go astray nor shall he suffer hardship.'But whoever turned away from My rememberance, then he shall have a straightened life, and We will gather him on the Day of Resurrection blind. He will say: 'My Lord! why have You raised me up blind when i had sight before?' He (Allah) shall say: 'Even so, Our signs came to you, but you neglected them, so you will be neglected today.'
neglect your lord and he shall surely neglect you. (Comment this)
I would tell you to read Mein Kampf for an answer, but your would not.
I would tell you to read the official documents of the Third Reich, to see their official movies... but you will not.
I would tell you of other things that you should see and read and hear in order to have some understanding... but we both know you won't.
The pointless, self-destructive flame of fanatic zeal always burns away everything else.
(Comment this)
then may I suggest this? (Comment this)
Yes? What about it? This... foulness has about as much connection to reality as Santa Claus. Let me put it this way - my family have survived the Holocaust. I know hundreds of holocaust survivers. And personally I think that anyone calling them liars should be left alone with a 100 or so of them for a couple of hours. Or days, better yet. And hear some testaments.
And I am very glad that some good person at JDL managed to explain the insanity of Mr. Cole's actions to Mr. Cole.
But, of course, it's all a conspiracy theory. And Protocols of the Elders of Zion is not fiction. And neither are the assorted blood liebels.
And to conclude - here's a thread on a site you'll find ideologically pleasing: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=241521
I am sure you'll find the thread and all of the site most enjoyable and illuminating while not crossing any moral or ideological boundaries.
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Trying to prove that David Cole is wrong is like trying to prove that the French Revolution has happened.
Seach the Yad va-Shem database. Read up. See witness statements, see Nurenberg Trials on video and read them printed, see survivors testimonies. Visit the camps.
I know that there is no point in trying to argue this with you - it is, after all, a matter of faith. And if yours is decided against all the incredible amount of evidence availiable (many of the survivors and perpetrators are alive, for Eris' sake!), then there is nothing further I can do to show you your error.
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We will never see one in our life time.
Honestly, the fact that the crown jewel of holocoust proof, the gas chamber at Aushwitz, was "re-constructed" should raise our collective eyebrows at least a smige.
Or how about the Fact that the Soviet death figure of over 4 million was almost 4x the figure presented by jewish historians today as the official number of app. 1.1 million? The 4 million claim hung around just long enough for everybody to get settled in Israel and have some children and grand children. No moving out now! I was borne here!
Think about this, as the movie stated (and i am inclined to agree) the only way to pull of such a mass genocide by means of gas chambers, would be to hold mass gassings of crowds of people. and these "group gassings" would have to be held almost around the clock! and at a very fast pace at that! I highly doubt that. and, another interesting observation. it takes longer to burn a body than it does to gas it so the incinerators would literally have never stopped burning. I would say that there would have been a surplus of bodys waiting to be burned when the camp was taken over by the allies. Where is the mountain of bodys? 1.1 million bodys is no modest claim. it would have been faster and cheaper to just to dig mass graves wouldn't it? Just one problem, that would require evidence............i guess we will just stick with the gas and burn story.
You know, its funny. all of you out there acuse me personally, and muslims in general, of following issues blindly. But you all have bought one of the many great hoaxes of all time, the holocoust, EXCLUSIVELY on the testimony of "victoms" and on published statements of people who have a vested intrest in the subject. to so insightful now, are you. Even if the Holocoust was 100% fact and i am 110% wrong, why haven't you guys on the "fact patrol" demanded some....well....FACTS?!? you seem to demand them from muslims on nearly every topic, why not question the jews on their main claim to their "need" of a holy land. (not to be misunderstood with their claim of rightful ownership given to them by the same god they have rejected, which is a different topic altoghether.)
the only thing i follow blindly is the sunnah of sayideena muhammad (sas) and the teachings of the holy qur'an. And i will admit that i don't even follow THAT correctly all of the time.
and that is an admirable thing to follow. you can't justify taking the official holocoust story on face value with the same devotion and trust, and yet you do.
I would once again like to thank my respected brother hilmi for his efforts and want him to know that his hours of typing have not gone to waste. you have reached me my brother, and many more im sure.
P.S. you have reached the enemy to, but they cannot allow themselves to admit their obvious foolishness.
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT MY BROTHER, MAY ALLAH REWARD YOU. (Comment this)
The "enemy" pities you, Atta ur-Rahman. Your juveline, triumphalist ideology of ignorance is as tenacious as it is insane. When given answers, you ignore them - a sympthom of cognitive dissonance at it's strongest.
Oh well. Hope you'll get better.
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Anonymous, Atta; do not waste too much time arguing with non-Muslims. Today our ummah has a problem and this problem is the absence of the Islamic leadership. This problem will not be solved by non-Muslims, but by Muslims. We can discuss with non-Muslims to share ideas or explain to the curious, but do not spend too much time and don't stress yourselves too much for them. The khilafah will be built by Muslims and it is them that we should spend every minute of our lives for.
So don't worry or anger yourselves over intimidating arguments, but smile and always think that when we will be living under the shade of the khilafah, it will take full responsibilty to stand for everything that is true and right.
barakallahu feekum
wassalam (Comment this)
I do look forward to the establishment of a khalifah and am confused as to why there isn't more of a demand for one. But when it does come we will, as it says on your website, rejoice!!! (Comment this)